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Remove Allied Grenade tech costs

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d0ggY
27 Oct 2015, 14:39 PM
#41
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jump backJump back to quoted post27 Oct 2015, 05:45 AMmomo4sho
Or how about we add tech costs for at least grenadier lmgs, volks shrecks ( MAYBE), instead? So there is at least a thought process behind them like teching molotovs, grenades, BARs rather than the brainless upgrades they actually are?

Why do Axis get essentially " free " upgrades like these when the Allied players are paying for them in extra MP/ Fuel.

It really makes no sense to me. Makes doctrines like CAS stronger than they need to be when there is no extra cost tied to upgrading LMG's


Ok momo, in a 1v1, the brit infantry, the soviet infantry, the usf infantry win against all axis infantry in early game.Even the light vehicles you call win against axis light vehicles (assuming m20 dude gets out of car and uses his zook). So if axis dont get any kinds of nades for free, you just overrun them. Simple as that, otherwise cover camping and it's for allies.
Me: I am scared, that i will need to shake ma head the same as when i read ur posts, so i rather not

Katitof: Its not even close to me even at my worst in the past, imagine ullu, incendiary, aaa, vetlolcake and disto merge into one mega axis zord with forcefield protecting it from accepting any factual data. Add to that a victim card(his rumblings at my PM).
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Shanka
27 Oct 2015, 14:48 PM
#42
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The only faction who could claim to get free nades for techingis brits, mills bomb suck ass and i've never seen a brit player teching them in the early-mid game

USF should not get free nades, if so, that would the end of mg; but free nades tech on brits seems a good idea, it can surely help brit vs building (Wasp die too fast to mg and bugged centaur and croco hits the field too late to help you win)
History
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squippy
27 Oct 2015, 16:25 PM
#43
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Posts: 484

All these upgrades are paid for, because they number among the abilities of the unit, and therefore determine the cost you pay when buying one. And again to reinforce. If you were to say, make Grens have to first buy an upgrade unlock before being able to do upgrades on the unit, then the price of Grens would have to be reduced.
“Disobedience, in the eyes of any one who has read history, is man's original virtue. It is through disobedience that progress has been made, through disobedience and through rebellion.”
― Oscar Wilde
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Katitof
27 Oct 2015, 16:29 PM
#44
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jump backJump back to quoted post27 Oct 2015, 16:25 PMsquippy
All these upgrades are paid for, because they number among the abilities of the unit, and therefore determine the cost you pay when buying one. And again to reinforce. If you were to say, make Grens have to first buy an upgrade unlock before being able to do upgrades on the unit, then the price of Grens would have to be reduced.


That is one dumb argument right there.
Units are balanced on menpower vs menpower cost basis.

Upgrades enhance their role or change it.
Grens are balanced against all other infantry based on their stock out of the game performance.

You don't see conscripts being cheaper or stronger just because they have to buy AT nades and molos first.
jump backJump back to quoted post25 Nov 2015, 11:09 AM$nuffy
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
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squippy
27 Oct 2015, 16:38 PM
#45
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Well, yes you do. It's a standard and commonplace game mechanic: the capacity for upgrades is something that is factored into the base unit price. This is true across all sorts of games in all sorts of genres.

Frex, Elemental: Legendary Heroes has a unit designer that allows you to assemble units from a whole smorgasbord of abilities. Two of those abilities allow the unit to wear armour either up to chain mail, or plate mail. You have to pay for these abilities, but they do not actually give the unit that armour. You have to pay for the armour as well when you actually build one.

I assure you that is quite normal, and if Cons did not have the possibility of gaining access to Molotovs and AT grenades, they would indeed be cheaper than they are now.
“Disobedience, in the eyes of any one who has read history, is man's original virtue. It is through disobedience that progress has been made, through disobedience and through rebellion.”
― Oscar Wilde
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vietnamabc
27 Oct 2015, 16:47 PM
#46
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Posts: 1063

Just combined molo and AT nade into 1 upgrade like US nade upgrade and it's fine.
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niutudis
27 Oct 2015, 17:02 PM
#47
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jump backJump back to quoted post27 Oct 2015, 00:35 AMProBro
... Master race OKW Volksgrenadier ...


:facepalm:

I never saw anything unfair in the grenade tech costs for allies, but I´ve seen a lot of babyrage about it on the steamforum by the usual usf-fanbois.

Axis can throw their munitions away with those grenades instead of using it on something more usefull... So what? Is that realy such a bad thing?
Imo because not everyone uses the grenades on allies they are much more effective - you dont expect grenades to be used in every game as axis so the first 1-2 grenades have a high potential to do a lot of damage to your earlygame.
When playing usf/brit or sov you pretty much wait for the axisplayer to use them- you dodge them and the axis just wasted munitions.
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daspoulos
27 Oct 2015, 17:52 PM
#48
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Lol introduce cheaper tech costs for ostheer down to allied levels and dual equipping and you've got a deal. I mean we gotta make everything the same right? Also don't give free squads for USF teching and make it so everyone has to build buildings with engineer units. Sounds good? no? Then fuck off.
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Katitof
27 Oct 2015, 17:59 PM
#49
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jump backJump back to quoted post27 Oct 2015, 17:52 PMdaspoulos
Lol introduce cheaper tech costs for ostheer down to allied levels and dual equipping and you've got a deal. I mean we gotta make everything the same right? Also don't give free squads for USF teching and make it so everyone has to build buildings with engineer units. Sounds good? no? Then fuck off.


Lets start equalizing costs from T1 to T3.

...

Done! Relative costs to get P4 are about equal to T34 and sherman.
Everything above is a bonus you need to pay extra for.
jump backJump back to quoted post25 Nov 2015, 11:09 AM$nuffy
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
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NEVEC
27 Oct 2015, 18:00 PM
#50
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jump backJump back to quoted post27 Oct 2015, 01:17 AMdaspoulos
Considering allied teching is lower than axis, why should they get grenades right from the get go?


Okw full tech up is 80 fuel, 120 considering fuel penatly.
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daspoulos
27 Oct 2015, 18:04 PM
#51
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jump backJump back to quoted post27 Oct 2015, 17:59 PMKatitof


Lets start equalizing costs from T1 to T3.

...

Done! Relative costs to get P4 are about equal to T34 and sherman.
Everything above is a bonus you need to pay extra for.

If it means cheaper teching and dual equipping lets do it. Screw game balance.
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Unshavenbackman
27 Oct 2015, 18:11 PM
#52
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Posts: 680

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Oct 2015, 04:59 AMCadianGuardsman
This thread takes the cake for not understanding asymmetrical balance and faction flavour at all. Not to mention it's misleading. Brit mills bombs and Ruskie molotovs are crazy at the moment. No denying that. They need to be locked behind a tech, arguably so should anti-vehcile grenades for the USF (should be tied into the grenades tech).


+1
And as you say not only the op has a hard time understanding asymmetrical balance but the whole thread. For most it seems like chess is the role-model. White vs black without any diversity.
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Rollo
27 Oct 2015, 18:26 PM
#53
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The only faction that shouldn't have to upgrade for grenades is brits, they are too manpower starved.

Americans get stock 5 man squads, AT grenades, doctrinal LMG's and flamers all MP free and BAR/Zook units through tech. Brits get two shitty howitzers and an 150mp and 25 fuel upgrade for grenades that doesn't even come with smoke like it's USF counterpart.

Don't even get me started on PIAT's :snfBarton:
Click for depression

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ElSlayer
27 Oct 2015, 20:26 PM
#54
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Yeah, also remove free units from USF teching.
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TaurusBully
27 Oct 2015, 20:44 PM
#55
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jump backJump back to quoted post27 Oct 2015, 20:26 PMElSlayer
Yeah, also remove free units from USF teching.


This.

What a joke of a thread that does not understand asymetrical design.

Only good idea and that should be considered of all posts is the molo and at nade for SU being on one upgrade. I could agree with that.
Team game player.

All factions Player.
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Hat
27 Oct 2015, 23:31 PM
#56
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jump backJump back to quoted post27 Oct 2015, 17:02 PMniutudis


:facepalm:

I never saw anything unfair in the grenade tech costs for allies, but I´ve seen a lot of babyrage about it on the steamforum by the usual usf-fanbois.

Axis can throw their munitions away with those grenades instead of using it on something more usefull... So what? Is that realy such a bad thing?


You're basically wiping out allied HMG squads because of the pickup glitches. 30 ammo v Squad wipe.
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medhood
27 Oct 2015, 23:53 PM
#57
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jump backJump back to quoted post27 Oct 2015, 18:26 PMRollo
The only faction that shouldn't have to upgrade for grenades is brits, they are too manpower starved.

Americans get stock 5 man squads, AT grenades, doctrinal LMG's and flamers all MP free and BAR/Zook units through tech. Brits get two shitty howitzers and an 150mp and 25 fuel upgrade for grenades that doesn't even come with smoke like it's USF counterpart.

Don't even get me started on PIAT's :snfBarton:

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The Big Red 1
28 Oct 2015, 00:08 AM
#58
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jump backJump back to quoted post27 Oct 2015, 20:26 PMElSlayer
Yeah, also remove free units from USF teching.

u still gotta pay MP and FU for them.
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Hiflex
28 Oct 2015, 00:13 AM
#59
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Posts: 43

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Oct 2015, 09:01 AMmomo4sho


That would be fair, if BARs and nades would be unlocked if you teched to LT/CPT. but since we aren't in fairy tale land that isn't a valid counter argument. I really hope you aren't arguing for the sake of arguing in this context.

Next.

I always thought you were a guy of reason and also competent, but what I just read in this thread from you made my heart cry.
No seriously, give bars to rifles when you unlock the LT(but just 1 upgradeable per squad). But not nades. It would utterly destroy Ostheer in this current state of balance.(1v1/2v2)
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BeefSurge
28 Oct 2015, 00:55 AM
#60
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Posts: 1891

Allow a Volks and Gren squad to combine and deploy a deadly Rifle Incendiary Ace grenade for 60 munitions.
The Fascisti Will Pay.
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