Soviet tier 1

I don't really think it needs a ton of changes. Sniper is fine imo and does what it needs to do. Rememeber when y'all were saying "Waah German sniper is useless because 2 man soviet sniper always beats him it doesn't matter if cloak isn't as good?" Dullahan remembers. Penals with flamers are a really strong unit due to their squad count size and this really shouldn't be underestimated. (The SVT is still pretty solid too)

The biggest problem with Penals right now is satchel charge is a dud.

I wouldn't mind if Penals got Oorah or something though.

They have Oorah, and cons out scale them quite easily flames or not. The satchel is a victim of the explosives effects on buildings changes, where before 10 muni infiltration grenades were bringing down houses. Buffing the satchel alone will leave T1 right where it is, don't do it. Needs some flavour. Even the tiny 45mm AT peashooter to tide you over to T3 would be something as your completely arse in the wind to vehicles.

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Maybe these units may be situational , i think m3 is great on urban maps agains okw - its i dislodge you from everywhere and your only hope is raketen, but not as great on open maps (none unit can be great everywhere)

shocks are great on urban maps , guards are great with sniper if added dp
m5 is great as harraser stoper and mobile supression platform , it does what it should
katty is great agains pak walls

isu152 is great agains tiger doctrines (and i dont see any okw 1vs1 players going jagtiger except vindixcare) on open maps , it wipe the hell rom infantry + double zis and button and ines and mark vehicle do such great synenerzy agains german armor.

Yes they are map dependant , but definitly worth when you know what your doing (not like usa m3 whitch is never worth)

Soviet tier 1 is garbage and should never be built. The fact that it costs only 10 fuel now helps, but that's really all it has going for it. Snipers are far too fragile. They're inferior to the German sniper in literally every way now. Soviet snipers just get wiped to any stray mortar shell or a breeze in the wind. The scout car is useful for all of three minutes, which might be fine if it weren't the only useful unit in the entire tier, and honestly, I don't even like them that much anyway. Penals are...penals. Penals aren't terrible per se, but there really isn't any reason to build them over conscripts. They certainly aren't anywhere near riflemen for only 10 manpower less. I honestly don't know why they're even in the game; they serve no real role.

Moving the AT gun to T0 would fix it, I honestly don't go T1 because of the lack of AT guns which would easily screw my penals/snipers hard if the opponent goes 222/flak HT, otherwise I feel like these units are mostly fine the satchel charge is still great vs okw and penals work well in small/urban maps.

And also if you went T1-T3-T4 you will eventually need AT guns to cover your vehicles so you are forced to back tech, it's pretty much impossible to play without them for an entire match.

Moving the AT gun to T0 would fix it, I honestly don't go T1 because of the lack of AT guns which would easily screw my penals/snipers hard if the opponent goes 222/flak HT, otherwise I feel like these units are mostly fine the satchel charge is still great vs okw and penals work well in small/urban maps.

And also if you went T1-T3-T4 you will eventually need AT guns to cover your vehicles so you are forced to back tech, it's pretty much impossible to play without them for an entire match.

?? To get 222 u need to tech and build another tierbulding. Guess how you counter that? Build another Tier building yourself (tip:t2)
Jeez are you seriously saying that t1 Start should counter Ost t1 AND t2? Im biased too but

^Ost has MG42 from HQ.

They have Oorah, and cons out scale them quite easily flames or not. The satchel is a victim of the explosives effects on buildings changes, where before 10 muni infiltration grenades were bringing down houses. Buffing the satchel alone will leave T1 right where it is, don't do it. Needs some flavour. Even the tiny 45mm AT peashooter to tide you over to T3 would be something as your completely arse in the wind to vehicles.

Really? Shit did I just forget about that or was it patched in awhile ago?

Without PPSH I don't really see how cons scale better. But I don't know vet bonuses so maybe they overshadow the later on. But the early game impact of penals is pretty high.

It will leave it right where it has been for years, perfectly fine. Although if you ask me, I always preferred when shock troops and guard rifles had to be purchased from T1. I kind of feel like having easy access to maxim's and shocktroops is pretty ridiculous.

There's lots of AT options for Soviets if they go T1. They can tech T2 pretty cheap, AT grenades and mines are always good and then there's doctrinal AT. Partisan Tank hunters, guard rifles etc that can fill in the gaps and have great synergy with the scout car as an AT patrol.



The mistake a lot of people make imo is going straight to t3 without doctrinal AT to fill in their gaps. Of course you're going to have a hard time with flak halftrack or a 222 if you skip t2 and don't have doctrinal AT. Even then, it's entirely possible to kill both just with AT grenades. (Although you're better off with a mine + AT grenade.)

Really? Shit did I just forget about that or was it patched in awhile ago?

penals' oorah is vet 2 iirc. they have flares at vet 1.

Really? Shit did I just forget about that or was it patched in awhile ago?

Without PPSH I don't really see how cons scale better.

Without weapon upgrades cons simply die less.
I'd hardly call that outscaling for an infantry that needs to be in melee range to be effective.

For example:
Engineers and their utility
Conscripts with ppsh
m3
guards
shocks
maxim
at gun
t70
suchka
m5
katty
t34/85
is2
isu152

These units are strong and viaable , i dont think they underperform , only problem is kv8 overperforming not the other way.

Problem is half of those things are doctrinal.

Without doctrinal the list stands at
(Conscripts without ppsh)
M3
Maxim
At gun
T70
M5
Suchka
Katty

I'd argue mortar and su-85 could be added, with t-70 and katy needing minor buffs - t-70 to Stuart HP, katy revert aoe nerfs.
Of that list it's clear t1 has only the m3 as viable, which is viable only for the first half of the game.

T1 is a victim of the flawed design of the game on release - they wanted to have a similar matchup to wmq and barracks from vcoh, but had to reinvent because reasons.

Jeep became m3 with the ability to carry troops meant to be useful with the blizzard and deep snow mechanics. Rifles became t0 conscripts (really hate t0 "no decision necessary" access to basic inf), penals were put in instead. I've never liked penals, if I want ff I go engies, they have no late game upgrade and basically offer worse utility than conscripts. The only good thing added was sniper, but sniper has fallen out of favour.

They need to give t1 a useful core unit. A lot of people wanted penals removed and guards to be t1, but after the big sov tech reshuffle t3-t4 this died down a bit. I wouldn't want guards as they'd counter 222 too easily making t1 super strong. I'd love shocks to be added to t1, or at least some more utility such as ppsh upgrade available to conscripts at t1.

Edit autocorrect hates conscripts

T1 is now so bad that it isnt even funny.

M3s get rekt by camo raketens so easily. Flamers have now -50% accutary in clowncars. 222 has more health than before and has autocannon without upgrade.
Snipers are so bad, they were good when people abused sprint but now shit camo and low ROF makes them so bad. 222 and kubel are now good counters to snipers.
Penals are still bad, even their flamethrower has been buffed. They are still useless when vehicles come to game, better spam engineer flamers.

Penals should just be better AI. The cost is too high and / or you can better go for cons and not build T1 than building T1 and go for mor expensive non sense.

Problem is half of those things are doctrinal.

Without doctrinal the list stands at
(Conscripts without ppsh)
M3
Maxim
At gun
T70
M5
Suchka
Katty

I'd argue mortar and su-85 could be added, with t-70 and katy needing minor buffs - t-70 to Stuart HP, katy revert aoe nerfs.
Of that list it's clear t1 has only the m3 as viable, which is viable only for the first half of the game.

T1 is a victim of the flawed design of the game on release - they wanted to have a similar matchup to wmq and barracks from vcoh, but had to reinvent because reasons.

Jeep became m3 with the ability to carry troops meant to be useful with the blizzard and deep snow mechanics. Rifles became t0 conscripts (really hate t0 "no decision necessary" access to basic inf), penals were put in instead. I've never liked penals, if I want ff I go engies, they have no late game upgrade and basically offer worse utility than conscripts. The only good thing added was sniper, but sniper has fallen out of favour.

They need to give t1 a useful core unit. A lot of people wanted penals removed and guards to be t1, but after the big sov tech reshuffle t3-t4 this died down a bit. I wouldn't want guards as they'd counter 222 too easily making t1 super strong. I'd love shocks to be added to t1, or at least some more utility such as ppsh upgrade available to conscripts at t1.

Edit autocorrect hates conscripts

No i dont like shocks in tier 1 i dont want to give soviets elite ai rambos that come at 0 Cps.

Also dont you think my changes are enaught ?

This thread is not about whining why the tier 1 is useless its how to make it usefull.

Please guys keep more conscructive

No i dont like shocks in tier 1 i dont want to give soviets elite ai rambos that come at 0 Cps.

Also dont you think my changes are enaught ?

This thread is not about whining why the tier 1 is useless its how to make it usefull.

Please guys keep more conscructive

I'd just make Penals really expensive Riflemen (something like 330 MP) that have guard mosins and an SVT upgrade that is similar to pfusiliers G43 so that they can be actual mainline infantry.

No i dont like shocks in tier 1 i dont want to give soviets elite ai rambos that come at 0 Cps.

Also dont you think my changes are enaught ?

This thread is not about whining why the tier 1 is useless its how to make it usefull.

Please guys keep more conscructive

Was trying to give some background as to why I thought t1 needed a change, and what led me to my proposed solution. This is a soviet t1 discussion no?

I agree though, your proposed changes would make a nice impact - sniper cloak change is a no brainer, and giving penals their role back would be good even if it's niche.

I just think that t1 could be used to fix the early game call in meta and gaps in soviet base army. It would be a more radical change but better for the game. If sovs always had access to elite infantry at t1 it would make a lot more commanders viable. At the same time it would reduce the ability of soviets to spam conscripts or maxims into shocks as you could no longer call them in free of tech charge.

Perhaps adding shocks to t1 is a bit far, but I'd argue that it wouldn't be as bad as you'd think - first you'd sacrifice capping and manpower to build the rifle command, then you'd have to pay the pretty significant cost of the unit, adding up easily to one less squad of conscripts on the field in the early game. The sov player would also be vulnerable to a 222 rush requiring made tech and mine spend. You could even reduce the shock squad size to 5 men to make sniper a better counter at t1, and reflect the more elite nature of the squad.

I just don't think penals will ever be attractive as a choice when ultimately conscripts can do their job on the cheap. Ignoring all my shocks t1 fantasising I'd just add guards to t1, make them buy their ptrs, and be done with it.

No shock troops to tier 1 , it will create some OP stuff like shocks + guards . And have you ever tried shokcs in m3 ? They will wipe the floor with any asic infantry and completely wreck balance.

Also what will get shock doctrines then ?


I think giving penals their intended role as medim AI squad is eanught to make em more viaablr

Just give penals 100% dps buff at far range, 25-30% buff at mid range and call it a day, flamer being strictly anti garrison is a heavy direct nerf for them already and they are last infantry unit in game that needed a nerf.

And buff M-42.

With shocks in t1 im fine with Tiger in T4