Agreed, but locked behind a doctrine that is rarely seen. Move it to t0 and you will see nothing else but WC51 spam in the first 2-3 minutes of the game.
Do we see nothing but Kübel spam againstn OKW?
Refining USF Design
29 Sep 2015, 17:09 PM
#21
Posts: 747 | Subs: 2
Do we see nothing but Kübel spam againstn OKW?
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29 Sep 2015, 17:12 PM
#22
Posts: 167
Permanently Banned
Do we see nothing but Kübel spam againstn OKW?
I rarely see double kubelwagen, most of the time I see one kubel or none at all.
Kubelspam is something I almost never see, perhaps one in a thousand games.
The point is, which you tried to dodge, that USF has a very strong early game, which with a t0 wc51 will totally destroy any axis early game.
Be realistic
I am realistic and thoughtful.
You're the one who is blind to that, ignoring overpowering synergy that would create for ost, imbalancing completely their tiering and tech pace.
29 Sep 2015, 17:17 PM
#23
Posts: 747 | Subs: 2
I rarely see double kubelwagen, most of the time I see one kubel or none at all.
Kubelspam is something I almost never see, perhaps one in a thousand games.
The point is, which you tried to dodge, that USF has a very strong early game, which with a t0 wc51 will totally destroy any axis early game.
Be realistic
The WC51 is expensive and means 1 rifle less at the beginning and no nades. It could be used to diversify the USF start and fix the Kübel dominance against USF on 3v3 and 4v4.
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29 Sep 2015, 17:18 PM
#24
Posts: 403
Please tell me how 1 less rifle will somehow make USF early game even stronger in exchange for a paper jeep that dies to 1 faust?
My place in the ladder is irrelevant as long as I am matched with opponents of the same rank and play all factions (balance at place 1000+ is no different from balance in top 100 if we consider what I said before the brakets) so I don't care about your assertion which is also irrelevant.
29 Sep 2015, 17:23 PM
#25
Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1
Lets try and not buff USF further until we fix the rest of the game.
29 Sep 2015, 17:23 PM
#26
Posts: 167
Permanently BannedPlease tell me how 1 less rifle will somehow make USF early game even stronger in exchange for a paper jeep that dies to 1 faust?
ThEn you have three rifles with REs and a WC51. This will totally hamper USF early game
I am realistic and thoughtful.
You're the one who is blind to that, ignoring overpowering synergy that would create for ost, imbalancing completely their tiering and tech pace.
29 Sep 2015, 17:30 PM
#27
Posts: 1891
Point is increasing USF diversity, this =\= buffing USF.
I like Panzer Elite-teching, swap a buffed pack Howie with Scott, make light vehicles a T0 research.
I like Panzer Elite-teching, swap a buffed pack Howie with Scott, make light vehicles a T0 research.
The Fascisti Will Pay.
29 Sep 2015, 17:31 PM
#28
Posts: 747 | Subs: 2
ThEn you have three rifles with REs and a WC51. This will totally hamper USF early game
Which means no heal for USF... and a major delay in light vehicles (besides the lack of grenades). Keep in mind that OKW has a similiar built by spamming volks and they are not totally owning everything with their Kübels, which are dirtcheap compared to the WC51.
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29 Sep 2015, 17:52 PM
#29
Posts: 2561
Lets try and not buff USF further until we fix the rest of the game.
Diversifying gameplay does not equal a buff.
Overall balance has much more to do with current meta units, not diversity. If a faction has half underpowered units, and half overpowered units then they will still have a high overall winrate, because players will simply use the stronger units more often.
29 Sep 2015, 17:59 PM
#30
3 
Posts: 33
ThEn you have three rifles with REs and a WC51. This will totally hamper USF early game
I think you need to play USF Mechanized more. If the WC31 was that good, you'd see more players use Mechanized, especially since many people consider any game that goes longer than 10 minutes with USF means USF lost. If the WC31 provided that much of an early game boost, it'd probably be instalocked at the start of all 1v1s or 2v2s. Instead its a shit unit in a shit doctrine; it's only real use is to kill early Kubels on your chokepoint or to provide veterancy for a later armor unit such as a Stuart or Scott. In truth, it is a slow, lightly armed and armored unit, that is far too expensive for what it does. It's cost somewhat works in Mechanized purely for the fact that if (big if) you manage you keep it alive, you can swap the crew and then withdraw it for your money back.
29 Sep 2015, 18:04 PM
#31
Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1
Diversifying gameplay does not equal a buff.
Overall balance has much more to do with current meta units, not diversity. If a faction has half underpowered units, and half overpowered units then they will still have a high overall winrate, because players will simply use the stronger units more often.
Diversifying gameplay has very far reaching consequences and I would much, much rather Relic spend their time getting their shit together and fixing the ever greater piling up issues than focus on reinventing USF every other week.
USF is more powerful than it's ever been, it has the most versatile basic infantry in the game with effective health that blows almost all other units in the game out of the water. It's got 2 viable starting tech choices, and really only has 1 lackluster commander these days.
At some point you need to pay attention to other factions, USF has gotten the fixes it needs to do well in every game mode, now lets try and see about pulling the Axis factions out of the toilet in 1's and 2's.
29 Sep 2015, 18:15 PM
#32
Posts: 2561
Diversifying gameplay has very far reaching consequences and I would much, much rather Relic spend their time getting their shit together and fixing the ever greater piling up issues than focus on reinventing USF every other week.
USF is more powerful than it's ever been, it has the most versatile basic infantry in the game with effective health that blows almost all other units in the game out of the water. It's got 2 viable starting tech choices, and really only has 1 lackluster commander these days.
At some point you need to pay attention to other factions, USF has gotten the fixes it needs to do well in every game mode, now lets try and see about pulling the Axis factions out of the toilet in 1's and 2's.
Checking the charts it seems like ostheer is the only one suffering that bad. OKW is only a little worse then the allied factions, they are actually doing fine 2v2 and up.
Either way it doesn't matter. Someone is always going to be top dog and some faction is going to be at the bottom. That changes every week. It doesn't mean that that is going to be the only issue we deal with every patch.
No matter how much they buff USF it wont change the fact that they are a boring, unappealing faction to play. And that's something that needs to be dealt with regardless of current balance.
29 Sep 2015, 18:18 PM
#33
Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1
Checking the charts it seems like ostheer is the only one suffering that bad. OKW is only a little worse then the allied factions, they are actually doing fine 2v2 and up.
Either way it doesn't matter. Someone is always going to be top dog and some faction is going to be at the bottom. That changes every week. It doesn't mean that that is going to be the only issue we deal with every patch.
No matter how much their buff USF it wont change the fact that they are a boring, unappealing faction to play. And that's something that needs to be dealt with regardless of current balance.
Barring spending months in Alpha testing to change the entire faction from the ground up so you don't have 1 infantry unit that does literally everything it's going to remain boring. And like I said; OKW is being propped up by ISG spam.
I have a lot of sympathy for USF players I really do, Iv been playing it a decent amount lately (god help me fuck playing Ostheer right now) and it just suffers in the extreme from Relic not putting a lot of thought into the factions most basic design.
All I'm saying is that we see this kind of thread every week, sometimes a new one every day! And we need to give it a rest and fix the issues that are making the game almost nigh unplayable right now.
29 Sep 2015, 18:49 PM
#34
4 Posts: 4301 | Subs: 2
i like the idea of PE thingy.
make usf tiering linear and unlocking better units within them an upgrade like TBF but choice is between faster next tech v. light vehicles.
lieutenant tier as ~25 fu to unlock 50cal and light mortar, 30 more fu for light vehicles, and captain for ~30fu for packhowi and at gun and the major, the unit for 30 fu and ~70 fu for the vehicles.
and make major arty not shitty. at least match the tommy arty - inaccurate shit but goes on for a long time.
make usf tiering linear and unlocking better units within them an upgrade like TBF but choice is between faster next tech v. light vehicles.
lieutenant tier as ~25 fu to unlock 50cal and light mortar, 30 more fu for light vehicles, and captain for ~30fu for packhowi and at gun and the major, the unit for 30 fu and ~70 fu for the vehicles.
and make major arty not shitty. at least match the tommy arty - inaccurate shit but goes on for a long time.
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29 Sep 2015, 18:54 PM
#35
Posts: 167
Permanently Banned
Which means no heal for USF... and a major delay in light vehicles (besides the lack of grenades). Keep in mind that OKW has a similiar built by spamming volks and they are not totally owning everything with their Kübels, which are dirtcheap compared to the WC51.
What?
OKW are owning everything? I presume that you play 3v3 or 4v4?
OKW has a hard time vs USF early game and vs the brits in general in 1v1, only having the leig to win with.
Perhaps you should play OKW yourself in ones, they aren't the gg machine you think they are
I am realistic and thoughtful.
You're the one who is blind to that, ignoring overpowering synergy that would create for ost, imbalancing completely their tiering and tech pace.
29 Sep 2015, 19:01 PM
#36
Posts: 167
Permanently Banned
I think you need to play USF Mechanized more. If the WC31 was that good, you'd see more players use Mechanized, especially since many people consider any game that goes longer than 10 minutes with USF means USF lost. If the WC31 provided that much of an early game boost, it'd probably be instalocked at the start of all 1v1s or 2v2s. Instead its a shit unit in a shit doctrine; it's only real use is to kill early Kubels on your chokepoint or to provide veterancy for a later armor unit such as a Stuart or Scott. In truth, it is a slow, lightly armed and armored unit, that is far too expensive for what it does. It's cost somewhat works in Mechanized purely for the fact that if (big if) you manage you keep it alive, you can swap the crew and then withdraw it for your money back.
The doctrine in general is shit, but if you can get a zero minute WC51 due to it being t0, it can most definately be of use and can deal some significant damage, plus you can put a rifle or RE squad in it.
On its own, it is shit, but supported at a very early game, it can most definately do significant damage!
I agree that the kubel is better and that rushing it to your cutoff is a dick move and a pain in the ass. But with USF early dominance, you can easily get map control and most of the map's fuel in the bank. A WC51 won't set you back that much and can provide good extra fire power if supported correctly.
I am realistic and thoughtful.
You're the one who is blind to that, ignoring overpowering synergy that would create for ost, imbalancing completely their tiering and tech pace.
29 Sep 2015, 19:41 PM
#37
3 Posts: 33
So you're arguing that a vehicle that has less health, less armor, less dps, slower, and costs more fuel and manpower than the Soviet M3A1 Scout Car will somehow buff USF early game because it would be t0? Even with Riflemen or REs inside it's still terrible against MG42s and barely has the DPS to kill a Kubel. It can't engage Grenadiers because its so slow and a single Panzerfaust is a death sentence. It has to be extremely careful engaging OKW because a Sturmpioneer up close will kill it faster than you can blink, and you never know if there's a camo'd raketenwerfer nearby.
The unit barely sees any use and if it was t0 non-doctrinal, it still wouldn't see any use. 20 fuel at t0 is huge; either it means you're late getting a Captain/LT/Ambulance, or you're not late and you skip Grenades or Ambulance. All of those things, Captain/LT/Ambulance/Grenades, have a bigger impact on the field for USF than the WC31.
The unit barely sees any use and if it was t0 non-doctrinal, it still wouldn't see any use. 20 fuel at t0 is huge; either it means you're late getting a Captain/LT/Ambulance, or you're not late and you skip Grenades or Ambulance. All of those things, Captain/LT/Ambulance/Grenades, have a bigger impact on the field for USF than the WC31.
29 Sep 2015, 19:47 PM
#38
Posts: 1891
i like the idea of PE thingy.
make usf tiering linear and unlocking better units within them an upgrade like TBF but choice is between faster next tech v. light vehicles.
lieutenant tier as ~25 fu to unlock 50cal and light mortar, 30 more fu for light vehicles, and captain for ~30fu for packhowi and at gun and the major, the unit for 30 fu and ~70 fu for the vehicles.
and make major arty not shitty. at least match the tommy arty - inaccurate shit but goes on for a long time.
Exactly, this.
The Fascisti Will Pay.
29 Sep 2015, 19:56 PM
#39
Posts: 747 | Subs: 2
What?
OKW are owning everything? I presume that you play 3v3 or 4v4?
OKW has a hard time vs USF early game and vs the brits in general in 1v1, only having the leig to win with.
Perhaps you should play OKW yourself in ones, they aren't the gg machine you think they are
Keep in mind that OKW has a similiar built by spamming volks and they are not totally owning everything with their Kübels,...
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29 Sep 2015, 21:40 PM
#40
Posts: 1216
I'd rather Relic redesign the units in question so that going LT is more justified, like giving M20 cloaking or observation mode a la T-70 to give it a late-game support role that would benefit other units well, but otherwise is a shitty choice to engage enemies with.
Another thing to consider is that the time to actually tech as USF seems very long compared to UKF. And putting more units into HQ tier would probably exacerbate that- you can only build three units at a time, so shoving a ton of units from one tier into a central one is probably not a good idea.
EDIT: Here's a random thought on the M20; give it an innate button ability. Would really help the guys trying to shoot down a rushed Puma with bazookas. Would also really give Axis players a second thought into trying to rush their Panzer4 against your AT gun or Jackson. It'll cost munitions and also could be a vet1 ability, so if you're desperate for a good AT support you can try the veteran vehicle switcheroo.
Another thing to consider is that the time to actually tech as USF seems very long compared to UKF. And putting more units into HQ tier would probably exacerbate that- you can only build three units at a time, so shoving a ton of units from one tier into a central one is probably not a good idea.
EDIT: Here's a random thought on the M20; give it an innate button ability. Would really help the guys trying to shoot down a rushed Puma with bazookas. Would also really give Axis players a second thought into trying to rush their Panzer4 against your AT gun or Jackson. It'll cost munitions and also could be a vet1 ability, so if you're desperate for a good AT support you can try the veteran vehicle switcheroo.
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