Refining USF Design

It's great to see USF's core finally having the power to be a good strong faction. Unfortunately USF's design is still very wonky. Restrictive teching and lack of diversity still makes USF a rather boring and unappealing faction to play. I think that it's time to give USF the same kind of treatment that the soviets received and make some changes so that they have the versatility and veriety Relic originally advertised them having.

1. M20 and At gun moved to HQ and locked behind any officer tech

2. Mortar added to T0 (fast set up time, accurate, low RoF, vet 1 flares)

3. Pack Howitzer changed to barrage only, stats changed accordingly

4. Buildable weapon caches for RE for 50 manpower


Description:

1. No faction should ever be without their AT gun. They are a important unit necessary to stay in the game without an armor advantage. Having it locked behind an optional teir is far too restrictive, especially for a faction that so heavily relies on it's ability to adapt. A large reason why the lieutenant is currently underused.

The M20 should also see the same. Partially so that USF actually has access to their only mine layer, but also so that neither officer becomes more desirable over the other. A cheaper cost and faster mine laying speed would also help it act as a true utility vehicle. Hopefully we might see this unit being used later in the game specifically for it's access to mines.

2. USF has extremely little opening variety. A mortar would allow them a more conservative opening and allow them to counter MGs through manpower instead spending a decent amount of fuel and munitions on upgrading and using the grenades upgrades. Should be mobile with more emphasis on supporting rifles with smoke and flares, then actually doing a ton of damage itself, much like the rest of USF design.

3. With the addition of a mortar, the pack howitzer no longer would have to fill the role. It could then be used instead a source of heavier indirect that USF is currently lacking outside of it's infantry company. Unique in that it would be available earlier, and hit a bit weaker then most other factions rocket artillery. But would help cover the role that USF is sorely lacking right now. And Being able to reposition between barrages and do burst damage, would fit USF design far better then it's rather static and defensive current role. And being able to move it won't become immediately useless if your opponent gets a stuka or panzerwherfer on the field.

4. A simple ease of use change, to simply give USF a way to upgrade out in the field, especially useful in those large team games where going all the way back to the base can take a long time. A weakness that is especially bad for the supposed "mobile" faction.

these seem pretty sound ideas and yes I really want to see a weapon cache be built by RE's instead of just having to run bak to base

What if instead of shifting the M20 and AT gun into T0 USF tech was just designed to be similar to PE tech?

What I mean by this is that T1 and T2 would both be buildable from the start of the game for relatively cheap (100-150MP/10-20FU) but the officer and M15/Stuart in those tiers would be initially locked. A USF player would have to spend additional MP and FU (200MP/30-40FU) to purchase the officer which would then unlock the M15/Stuart. T3 couldn't be upgraded untill a T1 or T2 officer is purchased and if relic wanted to adjust the arrival time of the sherman or jackson a similar tier/officer unlock scheme could be applied to T3 as well.

If you wanted to go further the pack howie could be replaced by a mortar in T2 and then shifted into T3 to act as a mobile barrage howitzer (no autoattack) in order to provide USF a rocket artillary equivilent late game.

The result of this change would be that USF would have early access to a MG/ATG/Mortar/M20 and could afford to have access to both tiers but would only be able to realistically choose one officer. The separation of officer and tier tech would also provide more levers for controlling unit/tier timing.

What if instead of shifting the M20 and AT gun into T0 USF tech was just designed to be similar to PE tech?

What I mean by this is that T1 and T2 would both be buildable from the start of the game for relatively cheap (100-150MP/10-20FU) but the officer and M15/Stuart in those tiers would be initially locked. A USF player would have to spend additional MP and FU (200MP/30-40FU) to purchase the officer which would then unlock the M15/Stuart. T3 couldn't be upgraded untill a T1 or T2 officer is purchased and if relic wanted to adjust the arrival time of the sherman or jackson a similar tier/officer unlock scheme could be applied to T3 as well.

If you wanted to go further the pack howie could be replaced by a mortar in T2 and then shifted into T3 to act as a mobile barrage howitzer (no autoattack) in order to provide USF a rocket artillary equivilent late game.

The result of this change would be that USF would have early access to a MG/ATG/Mortar/M20 and could afford to have access to both tiers but would only be able to realistically choose one officer. The separation of officer and tier tech would also provide more levers for controlling unit/tier timing.

Not a bad idea. Pretty much a version of what they did to soviets to make side teching easier. Would probably work, though a tad bit complicated.

Only thing is even with the pack being made into a barrage unit, I don't see it being as powerful as actual rocket arty. T3 seems a bit late for it to come out.

Only thing is even with the pack being made into a barrage unit, I don't see it being as powerful as actual rocket arty. T3 seems a bit late for it to come out.

Since the pack howie wouldn't have a fuel cost I wouldn't count on it to be as devastating as rocket arty either but it should be able to force infantry to move out of an area or be destroyed.

What if instead of shifting the M20 and AT gun into T0 USF tech was just designed to be similar to PE tech?

What I mean by this is that T1 and T2 would both be buildable from the start of the game for relatively cheap (100-150MP/10-20FU) but the officer and M15/Stuart in those tiers would be initially locked. A USF player would have to spend additional MP and FU (200MP/30-40FU) to purchase the officer which would then unlock the M15/Stuart. T3 couldn't be upgraded untill a T1 or T2 officer is purchased and if relic wanted to adjust the arrival time of the sherman or jackson a similar tier/officer unlock scheme could be applied to T3 as well.

If you wanted to go further the pack howie could be replaced by a mortar in T2 and then shifted into T3 to act as a mobile barrage howitzer (no autoattack) in order to provide USF a rocket artillary equivilent late game.

The result of this change would be that USF would have early access to a MG/ATG/Mortar/M20 and could afford to have access to both tiers but would only be able to realistically choose one officer. The separation of officer and tier tech would also provide more levers for controlling unit/tier timing.

There could also be a T0 research upgrade called "Mechanized Vehicle Upgrade" or something that allows you to buy light vehicles.

So 20 fuel LT and 20 fuel Captain, the above upgrade would be 30 fuel. I like it, early officers would help map presence.

Instead of swapping pack howitzer with mortar, what if the M8 Scott and the Pack Howitzer switched places?

+10000000000000

Relic please fix USF teching the way you fixed Soviet teching

Those are some pretty cool ideas, actually.

Great ideas! But a t0 mortar is not the smartest of moves, better have a t0 50cal.

If you put mortar in t0, there is no reason to go pak howi, it will be dwindled into never seens againness

Great ideas! But a t0 mortar is not the smartest of moves, better have a t0 50cal.

If you put mortar in t0, there is no reason to go pak howi, it will be dwindled into never seens againness

50cal + rifles would be too strong of a combo right off the bat.They need something to support the already potent rifles, not something that will overshadow them.

And the whole point of changing the pack is that it no longer has the same role as a mortar. You would get them both for different scenarios, especially since one comes later and isn't always available.

What about fixing OKW and Ostheer? Currently they're getting overrunned by allies.

What about fixing OKW and Ostheer? Currently they're getting overrunned by allies.

I agree with OKW, but IMO the sheer amount of options Ost has means that they we'll always be relevant, if that makes sense.

It make sense, but currently everything is rolling over them

What about fixing OKW and Ostheer? Currently they're getting overrunned by allies.

Ostheer has one of the best designs in the game, and OKW isn't that bad either. This isn't really about statistical balance, but choices and variety. If you want to talk about their design go make a thread about it.

USF are in a good position atm, but they lack a mortar and the at gun optional with every tier

nice changes, I don't play much USF atm purely because I find them boring. I wouldn't mind a WC51 in t0 either, easily countered by grens/raken but can provide support vs kubel bullshit

Can't agree with pack howitzer changes, M20 should stay with lT.

nice changes, I don't play much USF atm purely because I find them boring. I wouldn't mind a WC51 in t0 either, easily countered by grens/raken but can provide support vs kubel bullshit

T0 WC51 is a bit too much. Grens can only counter it after they tech to battlephase 1. SO there is an early window where they can be spammed and exploited without a direct counter.

Rifles dominate early game well enough this patch

T0 WC51 is a bit too much. Grens can only counter it after they tech to battlephase 1. SO there is an early window where they can be spammed and exploited without a direct counter.

Rifles dominate early game well enough this patch

WC51 is alrealdy a CP0 unit. There wouldn't really be much of a difference. It's pretty much the same thing as soviet's m3.

WC51 is alrealdy a CP0 unit. There wouldn't really be much of a difference. It's pretty much the same thing as soviet's m3.

Agreed, but locked behind a doctrine that is rarely seen. Move it to t0 and you will see nothing else but WC51 spam in the first 2-3 minutes of the game.