[AXIS] [All modes] [PIV should be on par with Ez8/t3485]

Everybody seems to forget on how fast a p4 can be on the field if it's rushed.

You compare it to a later game tanks, t34-85 should be compared to panther, EZ8 meh it just come far later

The P4 seems to be fine, it's not his role to go trough defence and kill everything, you need to use it as a support and at an opportuniti tank, if you see a tank with damage engine, rush in, close the distance, kill it, blitz back. You have the pak (OST) to do the at job

And come on, the p4 vet fast, you need to be carreful with it

Now that the Croc is a thing: no, Paks do NOT do the AT job. The last game I lost against a Croc, I was so frustrated that I calculated the probability of killing a Croc with a Pak. Here's the numbers:

Pak chance to penetrate front armour (the armour you will always shoot since that's where the flamethrower is): 70%

Number of penetrating shots required to kill the 1400hp: 9

Chance of penetrating 9 shots in a row: 4%

Chance the croc will kill all your packs before it dies: 100%
Chance the P4 can penetrate the croc: 39%
Chance the P4 can protect your paks from the flames from hell: 0%

When will you ever stop.

OST P4 is fine, very versatile units, OKW p4 comes with free skirts and can get to vet 5.

I like how your first change would make the PIV ridicilously overperform compared to all other allied tanks, while your second suggestion would make the PIV even less viable than it is now..

Now that the Croc is a thing: no, Paks do NOT do the AT job. The last game I lost against a Croc, I was so frustrated that I calculated the probability of killing a Croc with a Pak. Here's the numbers:

Pak chance to penetrate front armour (the armour you will always shoot since that's where the flamethrower is): 70%

Number of penetrating shots required to kill the 1400hp: 9

Chance of penetrating 9 shots in a row: 4%

Chance the croc will kill all your packs before it dies: 100%
Chance the P4 can penetrate the croc: 39%
Chance the P4 can protect your paks from the flames from hell: 0%

It's not a P4 that you need vs a Croco, it's stug, pak and mines, in this situation the p4 needs to come behind the croco while the stug stun lock him with the pak stun ability, if can deny the croco acces to your at solution , he will back the hell off. (i know it's not alway slike this, it's just an example of the perfect counter )

But if you got p4 at the time of croco hits the field, either you are a good conservative players and you got some pak and mines, either you are on deep shit

In accordance with the title of this thread I'd say, that the PV aka panther Panzer doesn't need do be better against AI. And he realy does stand well against other tanks inkludiert the E8

It's not a P4 that you need vs a Croco, it's stug, pak and mines, in this situation the p4 needs to come behind the croco while the stug stun lock him with the pak stun ability, if can deny the croco acces to your at solution , he will back the hell off. (i know it's not alway slike this, it's just an example of the perfect counter )

But if you got p4 at the time of croco hits the field, either you are a good conservative players and you got some pak and mines, either you are on deep shit

What you say in a nutshell: Smoke and Flank.

Seriously, you need one vetted StuG, one flanking PzIV and one Pak to hold of a single Croc? And all of them in an isolated situation (No arty, no enemy counter measures etc.). LogiK


Regarding OP:
I don't use PzIV and I don't want to use it because I think it's a waste of Fuel. As others mentioned, a StuG and an Ostwin (although more expensive) is a better investment (and IMO Ostwind is not that good either if you consider the price and time of arrival).

But what to do with PzIV? I think a small price nerf might do the trick. Like 10 less fuel.

The Panzer IV could use a cost decrease or penetration increase. The new Cromwell and Sherman are more cost efficient.

Perhaps some more penetration, rest in fine

Considering the Panther is a tank destroyer with 50 range and a huge frontal armour it absolutely does not need any of those changes. It shouldn't even be killing infantry and AT guns as easily as it does. (Would you like to see a Jackson wipe a Ziss gun with a Pintle MG?)Those changes that you suggested because that would completely destroy the current balance vs Soviet and USF armour which it already completely dominates.

Instead how about we give it a penetration buff so it's better against British Heavies.

*Edit* Wait what, when you say PV do you actually mean a Panzer IV? Either way, don't break what's fine. Buff it's penetration.

*Edit* Wait what, when you say PV do you actually mean a Panzer IV? Either way, don't break what's fine. Buff it's penetration.

There's a typo in the title, the thread is indeed about the Panzer IV.

In vacum PIV is fine but in the game its quite strange and risky unit.

Lets compare all other general medium tanks with PIV.

PIV vs T34. PIV is much better, but still T34 can deliver good punch to it if flanking\used right. Not to mention that T34 is the cheapest tank in the game.

PIV vs Sherman. PIV have much better AT while Sherman have much better AI. In 1v1 fight Sherman will lose almost always, but with support, sherman could deal with inf protecting PIV and something else will deal with PIV.

PIV vs Cromwell. They are almost on pair, PIV is slightly better. But the difference in this 10 fuel. Its almost unnoticeable.

So if you look on PIV like this its look fine. But lets look in different way.

Almost all best soviet commanders have T34\85 and USF almost always uses Rifle Company with E8. Both this tanks can outclassed PIV in every possible way. Usually PIV wont have a single chance against them in 1v1 fight.

Firstly because of new Ost tech costs its impossible to build both T3 and T4 and have tanks. So you rather chose should you go for T3 or T4. And I'il say that PIV is not spammable, so it would usually be 2 PIV or 1 Panther. Panther still would probable perform better in AT.

Secondly if anything besides T34\76, Sherman and Cromwell hits the field PIV almost instantly put you in insane disadvantage and you are forced to use StuGs, since PIV is unable to do anything in this kind of situation.

So in such situation, you chose to be honest more between StuGs or Panthers, because as I already said, PIV can effectively fight only stock medium tanks, but its not like Ost\OKW cant do anything to this tanks without PIV.

The problem is that PIV is out of role completely, slightly more expensive T34\85 or E8 and highther will dominate it. So main AT for T3 is StuG, main AI - Ostwind. PIV can work in both AT and AI but very decently, so you would still have to build StuGs or Ostwinds.



In other words

I would say that PIV need more armor or more health, to be a "shield" for ostwinds or StuGs, because right know there is almost no point in building them as Ost. Even OKW PIV with its survivability and armor is MUCH-MUUUUCH better then Ost counterpart.

OR

It should really cost you around 100-105 fuel, and work like combined arms unit with Ostwind OR StuG support.

Easy 8 should beat a Panzer 4 every time. One is a stock medium, the other is a doctrinal super medium that you get specifically for superior performance.

The Easy 8 should be slightly worse than a Panther but clearly superior to the Panzer 4.

Easy 8 should beat a Panzer 4 every time. One is a stock medium, the other is a doctrinal super medium that you get specifically for superior performance.

The Easy 8 should be slightly worse than a Panther but clearly superior to the Panzer 4.

Then it should cost slightly less than a Panther, but currently it's just 10 fuel more than a Panzer IV. Either the Panzer IV is overvalued or the Easy Eight is undervalued.

OKW Pz4 is really nice. I always use 3x +5% armour buff. Which makes it very strong. The Ostheer Pz4 is meh, but I'd vompare the Pz5 Panther with the T34/85

But you has vet5 vetenanshy

How can you get it to vet 5 if if can penetrate shit?


For the current cost, specially for OKW, it should at least be able to kite the t3486 and Ez8. The AI performance is just horrible.

Now I'm not expecting it to counter comet, crocs or MkVII. You got the panther for that purpose and those mentioned unit cost a fortune and require major decision makings.

It should deliver what it is supposed to do, a mix between the stug and brummar, but much less efficient at the specific roles. Which is not the case with the current stats, cost and timing(OKW)

OKW Pz4 is really nice. I always use 3x +5% armour buff. Which makes it very strong. The Ostheer Pz4 is meh, but I'd vompare the Pz5 Panther with the T34/85

And here comes the problem both E8 and T34\85 could be compared with Panther, but not PIV. Yet, both E8 and T34\85 cost slightly more then PIV and out class it badly. So what the point of even having ost PIV is 10 more fuel E8 will dominate it all day long.

It's funny how katitof rallied his henchmen behind his back and got them to say yes

Yet, both E8 and T34\85 cost slightly more then PIV and out class it badly.

You basicaly summed up the whole thread, thanks.

Maybe it is time to switch werfer and pz4, after buffing the latter a little

I think the PIV needs to be cheaper. Actually all of Ost T3 should be cheaper when you compare it to the abomination that is Brit T3

And here comes the problem both E8 and T34\85 could be compared with Panther, but not PIV. Yet, both E8 and T34\85 cost slightly more then PIV and out class it badly. So what the point of even having ost PIV is 10 more fuel E8 will dominate it all day long.

they are also doctrinal tanks. Also I have not many soviet players who go for t 34/85 commander, there are so many better commanders to use, garden, i am glad if my soviet opponent goes a commander with the 85