So both USF and UKF don't have rocket artillery. Personally I feel sometimes as if I'm constantly running into a wall of defenses that having a rocket unit like that would normally help me counter, but having chosen a doctrine without a heavy arty call-in, I'm left with little options to adapt properly.
But I don't seem to see such eagerness in giving these factions a way to compensate?
Now I know i'm more of a 2v2 player and 1v1 has much more room to manuever, but is heavy artillery really not a necessary role within the non-doctrinal armies?
Is heavy artillery not a necessary role?
23 Sep 2015, 16:30 PM
#1
Posts: 2561
23 Sep 2015, 16:32 PM
#2
Posts: 449
I would say it isn't necessary in 1v1.
There's usually some wiggle room for flanking.
There's usually some wiggle room for flanking.
23 Sep 2015, 16:34 PM
#3
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
Well, it depends what do you consider heavy arty.
If its just katy or werfer, then its not really heavy arty.
However these kind of units are needed against heavily camping players who dig in or heavily blob, without them you need to rely on doctrinal off-maps or you're gardened.
Heavy arty like the proper howitzers are not necassarity and they are doctrinal for that reason.
Units that are able to break ATG/HMG walls are needed for all factions equally, but only three of them have them.
If its just katy or werfer, then its not really heavy arty.
However these kind of units are needed against heavily camping players who dig in or heavily blob, without them you need to rely on doctrinal off-maps or you're gardened.
Heavy arty like the proper howitzers are not necassarity and they are doctrinal for that reason.
Units that are able to break ATG/HMG walls are needed for all factions equally, but only three of them have them.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
23 Sep 2015, 16:40 PM
#4
Posts: 2561
Well, it depends what do you consider heavy arty.I guess I've never made a distinction between rocket arty and heavy howitzers.
If its just katy or werfer, then its not really heavy arty.
However these kind of units are needed against heavily camping players who dig in or heavily blob, without them you need to rely on doctrinal off-maps or you're gardened.
Heavy arty like the proper howitzers are not necassarity and they are doctrinal for that reason.
Units that are able to break ATG/HMG walls are needed for all factions equally, but only three of them have them.
They both functionally do the same thing of firing from far away and hitting hard. The only difference I see is that the howitzers can damage tanks too. But both still are used to counter static playstyles, just one is multirole and the other only hurts buildings and infantry. It's not like most howitzers are all that dependable on killing tanks either.
23 Sep 2015, 16:44 PM
#5
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
I guess I've never made a distinction between rocket arty and heavy howitzers.
They both functionally do the same thing of firing from far away and hitting hard. The only difference I see is that the howitzers can damage tanks too. But both still are used to counter static playstyles, just one is multirole and the other only hurts buildings and infantry.
Pretty much.
You don't need to rely on big howis to damage tanks as we have ATGs and TDs for that, however you need some way to clear/deter/chase away mg and atg entrenched positions.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
23 Sep 2015, 23:26 PM
#6
Posts: 503
I definitely say that one form or another of artillery/Rockets is needed for those times when the enemy gets an MG and AT and infantry wall. The only faction in vanilla COH that could not get artillery except for one doctrine was Panzer Elite and they you get into situations where they faced a creeping wall of airborne/Rangers, AT guns and MGs and you were screwed if you did not select scorched earth which was very weak early game and took a while to get the Hummel howitzer so you were probably screwed anyway. Mortar half just couldn't do damage fast enough to Break up a wall once it formed
23 Sep 2015, 23:27 PM
#7
Posts: 503
Thankfully every faction now has either nondoctrinal or also doctrinal methods of breaking up a static Or creeping wall of infantry and support weapons, my favorite being the Katyusha!
24 Sep 2015, 01:35 AM
#8
Posts: 4928
Thankfully every faction now has either nondoctrinal or also doctrinal methods of breaking up a static Or creeping wall of infantry and support weapons, my favorite being the Katyusha!
Too bad the doctrinal methods rely on you stockpiling munitions, which make them more opportunity weapons than counters.
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24 Sep 2015, 04:22 AM
#9
1 Posts: 2307 | Subs: 4
Calliope and whatever that Brits thing is that have been seen in the game files. These will solve your problems.
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24 Sep 2015, 04:32 AM
#10
Posts: 2561
Calliope and whatever that Brits thing is that have been seen in the game files. These will solve your problems.That doesn't solve the problem anymore then the priest or sexton already does. They will be doctrinal, therefore not always available. Meaning you can't adapt properly if you don't choose those specific doctrines.
For example if I don't choose a soviet doctrine with the ML-20, I can still always pull out a katyusha. Likewise with whermacht. But not for USF and UKF. No artillery doctrine means absolutely no access to heavier indirect.
24 Sep 2015, 05:49 AM
#11
Posts: 1930
at this point the Pack howitzer is actually good enough to be considered "heavy".
24 Sep 2015, 07:08 AM
#12
Posts: 2396 | Subs: 1
So both USF and UKF don't have rocket artillery. Personally I feel sometimes as if I'm constantly running into a wall of defenses that having a rocket unit like that would normally help me counter, but having chosen a doctrine without a heavy arty call-in, I'm left with little options to adapt properly.
Well, tbh, a combined allied defense wall (zis, su85s, infantry, team crews) > a combined axis defense wall (paks, stugs/jagdpanzer, emplacements, team crews). Zis guns are resistant due to large squad numbers and difficult to kill by mortars or other range weapons before knocking your armor dead and su85s can spot for themselves. Such duels are quite often on open maps.
BeefSurge wrote:
A lot of people have an image of how they want a faction to play, leading to problems. This is why you have people complaining about lack of Soviet bunkers, why T34/76 sucks, why Cons don't scale, Grens don't get normal grenades, Muricans don't get heavy tank, OKW laser weapons and Die Glock Death Bell, etc.
A lot of people have an image of how they want a faction to play, leading to problems. This is why you have people complaining about lack of Soviet bunkers, why T34/76 sucks, why Cons don't scale, Grens don't get normal grenades, Muricans don't get heavy tank, OKW laser weapons and Die Glock Death Bell, etc.
24 Sep 2015, 07:22 AM
#13
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
at this point the Pack howitzer is actually good enough to be considered "heavy".
TBH PACK howi should lose autofire, get shorter barrage cooldown and have 6 shells instead of 3 in barrage.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
24 Sep 2015, 08:32 AM
#14
Posts: 30
Well, tbh, a combined allied defense wall (zis, su85s, infantry, team crews) > a combined axis defense wall (paks, stugs/jagdpanzer, emplacements, team crews). Zis guns are resistant due to large squad numbers and difficult to kill by mortars or other range weapons before knocking your armor dead and su85s can spot for themselves. Such duels are quite often on open maps.
whats your point? Axis still have a better time dealing with taht due to more on map artillery options. Try to break defensive doctrine OKW as brits in the current form without croc rush or offmap arty
24 Sep 2015, 09:00 AM
#15
Posts: 2396 | Subs: 1
whats your point? Axis still have a better time dealing with taht due to more on map artillery options. Try to break defensive doctrine OKW as brits in the current form without croc rush or offmap arty
Fine. I will use churchill AVRE then. See?
BeefSurge wrote:
A lot of people have an image of how they want a faction to play, leading to problems. This is why you have people complaining about lack of Soviet bunkers, why T34/76 sucks, why Cons don't scale, Grens don't get normal grenades, Muricans don't get heavy tank, OKW laser weapons and Die Glock Death Bell, etc.
A lot of people have an image of how they want a faction to play, leading to problems. This is why you have people complaining about lack of Soviet bunkers, why T34/76 sucks, why Cons don't scale, Grens don't get normal grenades, Muricans don't get heavy tank, OKW laser weapons and Die Glock Death Bell, etc.
24 Sep 2015, 10:40 AM
#16
Posts: 747 | Subs: 2
Fine. I will use churchill AVRE then. See?
You mean that thing with terrible AoE, terrible projectile speed and terrible range?
Fun fact: the AVRE can't destroy a Pak43 with 1 shot which leads to the loss of the AVRE if the PaK gets recrewed right after.
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24 Sep 2015, 11:13 AM
#17
Posts: 2396 | Subs: 1
You mean that thing with terrible AoE, terrible projectile speed and terrible range?
Fun fact: the AVRE can't destroy a Pak43 with 1 shot which leads to the loss of the AVRE if the PaK gets recrewed right after.
"gets recrewed" he said. Do you throw the AVRE alone against the PAK 43? Then you deserve losing it. Let me tell you how this develops most of times:
1. AVRE shots the PAK 43 - PAK 43 gets decrewed.
2. Your infantry that comes together with the AVRE take the PAK 43.
3. Your PAK 43 start sniping german armor.
BeefSurge wrote:
A lot of people have an image of how they want a faction to play, leading to problems. This is why you have people complaining about lack of Soviet bunkers, why T34/76 sucks, why Cons don't scale, Grens don't get normal grenades, Muricans don't get heavy tank, OKW laser weapons and Die Glock Death Bell, etc.
A lot of people have an image of how they want a faction to play, leading to problems. This is why you have people complaining about lack of Soviet bunkers, why T34/76 sucks, why Cons don't scale, Grens don't get normal grenades, Muricans don't get heavy tank, OKW laser weapons and Die Glock Death Bell, etc.
24 Sep 2015, 11:33 AM
#18
Posts: 747 | Subs: 2
"gets recrewed" he said. Do you throw the AVRE alone against the PAK 43? Then you deserve losing it. Let me tell you how this develops most of times:
1. AVRE shots the PAK 43 - PAK 43 gets decrewed.
2. Your infantry that comes together with the AVRE take the PAK 43.
3. Your PAK 43 start sniping german armor.
Do you let the PaK43 fight alone against the brits? Just, how can you defend your thesis with such weak arguments?!
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24 Sep 2015, 11:42 AM
#19
Posts: 1802 | Subs: 1
TBH PACK howi should lose autofire, get shorter barrage cooldown and have 6 shells instead of 3 in barrage.
Both Pack Howi and LeIG. They both should be medium arty pieces, better than mortars but less effective that Heavy pieces. Hell, even 8 shells would suit them well.
24 Sep 2015, 12:17 PM
#20
Posts: 2396 | Subs: 1
Do you let the PaK43 fight alone against the brits? Just, how can you defend your thesis with such weak arguments?!
It's not about defending anything, the idea is that an axis defensive line is more breakable, that's the whole point. Allied have more cheap units while not being less effective, bigger crews and stronger emplacements plus better balistic weapons. In addition, the sinergy between allied armies both in attack and defense is bigger and lead to more efficient results. It is generaly believed axis field better armor, but the differences aren't that big anymore once british entered into the picture, and the prices for wich axis get their heavy toys are discouraging. Plus, the heavies' limitations. For comparison, is churchill limited on one unit at a time on the map? Well, Tiger/Elefant/JagdTiger are.
BeefSurge wrote:
A lot of people have an image of how they want a faction to play, leading to problems. This is why you have people complaining about lack of Soviet bunkers, why T34/76 sucks, why Cons don't scale, Grens don't get normal grenades, Muricans don't get heavy tank, OKW laser weapons and Die Glock Death Bell, etc.
A lot of people have an image of how they want a faction to play, leading to problems. This is why you have people complaining about lack of Soviet bunkers, why T34/76 sucks, why Cons don't scale, Grens don't get normal grenades, Muricans don't get heavy tank, OKW laser weapons and Die Glock Death Bell, etc.
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