Suggestion- unique Flamethrower Rifleman unit

With the recent buffs to BARs and Riflemen vet, USF is now in a pretty healthy state. One issue that has resurfaced is the dominance of Rifle Company over every other USF commander, and the strength of the commander as a whole. While every single ability in the doctrine is now very potent, I would say that the most significant contributer to this commander's overperformance is the M2 flamethrower upgrade for riflemen. What does this upgrade do?

Grant complete control of garrisons
Apart from a select few (Langres, Minsk), nearly all 1v1 maps revolve around the control of key garrisons- Ferma Summer and Winter, Semois Summer and Winter, and Faymonville, for example. I have not yet played Sturzdorf, but I think it would be safe to assume to it is a garrison-dominated map.

What the flamethrower upgrade does is award total garrison control to the USF player for a one-time cost (60 muni per rifleman). Smoke grenades, mortar smoke, grenades, are all largely unnecessary, and allows for very little counterplay on the part of the opposing player. There can be no dodging of grenades or juking houses, because when a flamer rifle walks up to a house, there's very little to do except get out and cede control.

Be superior to alternative upgrades and other flamethrower wielding units
This one is obvious- all flamethrowers right now do very large amounts of damage to units in cover and garrisons. On other factions, this is partially negated by the vulnerability of specialist flamethrower units- other than penals, flamer units are fragile, vulnerable to vehicles, and receive little combat vet to augment their performance. Flamethrower riflemen throw this right out the window, being all-round superior to BAR rifles (not needing tech cost nor loss of map control to return to base and equip), much better than assault engineers, and superior to flamers of other factions.

This makes flamers a no-brainer upgrade- so much better than any alternative in almost all situations that it removes options and variety from gameplay. There's little reason to go for BARs as a Rifle Company player simply because the flamethrower is so strong. You'd be a fool to do anything other than go 3/4 rifles with flamers every game, and I suspect that OCF tourney games will bear my claim out.

My suggestion- Make M2 flamer rifles a separate unit instead of an upgrade for regular riflemen.

What I suggest would be to retain flamer riflemen, but as a separate unit rather than an upgrade for the baseline rifleman unit. Such a unit would be physically identical to a rifleman squad in model and animation and arrive on the field when purchased with the M2 flamethrower. This flamer squad would not be able to use smoke grenades and AT rifle grenades. Exact CP timing and cost doesn't matter from a conceptual level, but just to throw out ballpark figures I'd suggest 320MP and 2CP.

Theoretical result-

Promoting unit mixing
Flame riflemen would still be as lethal and potent damagewise, but would require the support of regular rifles to cover them from vehicles, to smoke MGs, etc. Overinvestment in flame rifles would be a choice- giving the USF player more earlygame raw power in exchange for utility that becomes increasingly important in the lategame.

Counterplay
Opponents can punish USF players with multiple flamer rifles at the expense of regular rifles with vehicles (222 for example) and machineguns (no smoke from flamer rifles). This means flame rifles are no longer Riflemen+, but instead have pros and cons like every other unit.

Thoughts?

I like the idea, but I'd prefer to have flame on RE's instead of a separate flame rifle unit. I think that would make it more consistent with the other flame infantry. Rifle company can have M18's to replace that slot

I agree, but paying MP only for a flamethrower unit also sounds really OP. With the muni you save you could give every flame rifle squad a zook, for instance.

I like the idea, but I'd prefer to have flame on RE's instead of a separate flame rifle unit. I think that would make it more consistent with the other flame infantry. Rifle company can have M18's to replace that slot

Recoilless Rifles were basically portable direct-fire artillery, I think the idea of essentially an AI Bazooka is a bit too strong. It doesn't fit in CoH2 any more than units automatically throwing Grenades do, and I think even those could work under the right circumstances (RE Fighting Position).

Another proposal:


Change Flamethrower ability with Rifleman field defense from Infantry commander.

Another proposal:


Change Flamethrower ability with Rifleman field defense from Infantry commander.

LMG's and Flamers in the same commander

I agree, but paying MP only for a flamethrower unit also sounds really OP. With the muni you save you could give every flame rifle squad a zook, for instance.

Just like paying 800mp for a Tiger Ace is OP. Think the suggestion is a great idea. Would think a munitions price would be needed though.

Same for tiger ace, damned thing needs to cost fuel.

The only thing that makes rifle company OP is people stupid enough to not move away from green cover vs flamers

Actually it is strong because of buffs to this commander.

Vet 1 infantry mean one less vet level t get to OP vet 3

flame + bar is great. It is actually one of best late game ai units at mid range if they get vet 3

With elite riflemen its not all that hard to get vet 3

Flares can help you to negate their normal counter - hmg


White phosporus is just You shall not pass arty strike , always good to call behind enemy and with conjuction with flare its perfect.


And in the end call in new buffed brads pitt Easy 8 to seal the deal.

Actually it is strong because of buffs to this commander.

Vet 1 infantry mean one less vet level t get to OP vet 3

True, I wouldn't say vet 3 is OP because I don't have experienced them yet

flame + bar is great. It is actually one of best late game ai units at mid range if they get vet 3

Do you have any idea how many munis does it cost to get bars in addition to flamers? That's not even including the delayed tech due to bar research. You barely have enough for nades early if you want flamers at once

With elite riflemen its not all that hard to get vet 3

Flares can help you to negate their normal counter - hmg

Flares instawipe hmg squads now? Oh right they give vision for the non existant USF mortar, also, cost muni to use which means less bars/flamers. I don't see your point because axis hmgs suppress multiple squads in 1 burst

White phosporus is just You shall not pass arty strike , always good to call behind enemy and with conjuction with flare its perfect.

It's a good arty strike. Again, costs munis.

And in the end call in new buffed brads pitt Easy 8 to seal the deal.

LITERALLY

M4A3 Easy Eight

Now that the Easy Eight requires tech to build it we are adding additional stats to diversify the unit from the regular M4A3 Sherman.
Health increased from 640 to 720
Near penetration increased from 175 to 200

Literally 80 hp and 25 close pen, how are they so ''broken op buffed'' now compared to the last patch?

Literally 80 hp and 25 close pen, how are they so ''broken op buffed'' now compared to the last patch?

80hp is a lot when it extends the life by 25% in a tank fight. Even 1 HP more would require another shot to kill, that's why health bulletins were replaced by armor bulletins.

Recoilless Rifles were basically portable direct-fire artillery, I think the idea of essentially an AI Bazooka is a bit too strong. It doesn't fit in CoH2 any more than units automatically throwing Grenades do, and I think even those could work under the right circumstances (RE Fighting Position).

They were exactly like you described, an accurate and portable anti-infantry mini-bazooka. Sounds extremely OP when you say it out loud but I'm sure they could find ways to balance it. First it'd take up 2 models to operate, probably be capped at 1 per squad, be behind a doctrine, and cost a lot of munis. Anyway, this is 100% wishful thinking on my end lol.

80hp is a lot when it extends the life by 25% in a tank fight. Even 1 HP more would require another shot to kill, that's why health bulletins were replaced by armor bulletins.

Yeah, they survive 4 pak shots now, with 80 health.

Can't see how it's such a big deal right now though when the blobs are rapant and decide games way earlier

They were exactly like you described, an accurate and portable anti-infantry mini-bazooka. Sounds extremely OP when you say it out loud but I'm sure they could find ways to balance it. First it'd take up 2 models to operate, probably be capped at 1 per squad, be behind a doctrine, and cost a lot of munis. Anyway, this is 100% wishful thinking on my end lol.

That sounds like a team weapon more than a unit upgrade.

True, I wouldn't say vet 3 is OP because I don't have experienced them yet.

The infantry will have like 60% recieved accuracy whitch means it gets only 60 % of 100% small arms fire , and its higher than any vet 3 unit evne on axis side and axis units have 4 member while allies have 5.
They just turn into mini mid range obers.



Do you have any idea how many munis does it cost to get bars in addition to flamers? That's not even including the delayed tech due to bar research. You barely have enough for nades early if you want flamers at once

LOL 15 fuel slowing teching , 15 fuel is like 40 seconds of income , you will get your sherman 40 second later , what a big deal, and maybe you even not get it later becvause brs allow you to win engangements and that means map control.

Yes they cost munny thats why i said it is more late game upgrade and with vet 3 ....



Flares instawipe hmg squads now? Oh right they give vision for the non existant USF mortar, also, cost muni to use which means less bars/flamers. I don't see your point because axis hmgs suppress multiple squads in 1 burst
They give you vission so you can flank that mg without need of 1 unit that get supressed as spoting unit, why you lolrush mgs ? it doesnt work try flanking



It's a good arty strike. Again, costs munis.
If it kills enemy pak wall its worth, agains its situation but have great synenerzy with other command slots

LITERALLY

M4A3 Easy Eight

Now that the Easy Eight requires tech to build it we are adding additional stats to diversify the unit from the regular M4A3 Sherman.
Health increased from 640 to 720
Near penetration increased from 175 to 200

Literally 80 hp and 25 close pen, how are they so ''broken op buffed'' now compared to the last patch?


That mean 1 more tank shot to survive


Agains i was saying about great synenerzy of this doctrine as whole not about power of individual slots , but the power of doctrine as a whole.


Whole is more than sum of its parts


And last thin whitch mode you meant ? i was talking about mod 1 vs 1 where USA is great now with this doctrine

The doctrine is great but there is nothing OP in it. Axis people doesn't like it because it counter well the usual turtling Axis playstyle.
The problem is more about Reco and mechanized doctrines that are half-3/4 useless. It is a bit incredible when you think they are "rare" doctrines.

I dont think the rifle doc is "OP" as such. but maybe they need to make it so... once you upgrade a squad with a flame thrower, their weapon capacity is FULL...


As it stands atm... you can equip the flamer, and 1 zook per squad (making your listed counter-play in the op ineffective).

What if flamer was moved on to RETs?

Lets ignore sprice though.

This is exactly the same issue as volk shrecks, mainline infantry is getting a weapon upgrade that only specialist should have.

Flamers on your main infantry isn't a good idea. Should be for specialized units as engi's or RE. (Luvnest words but I agree wholeheartedly)

Flamers on infantry isn't bad, Penals have had this since Day 1 and I haven't heard people complain Penals are OP for a very long time. It's New Rifle Vet + New Flames that made it over-perform.