Mark Target Change: Damage to Penetration

Hello gents, there was a topic on Mark Target a few weeks ago but rather than kicking it as that topic stated people offered some interesting changes to make Mark Target less frustrating and more player friendly (For both sides).
(I believe Thunderhun was the first to suggest the change with others adding onto it, don't quote me on that though.)

Currently Mark Target is a rather frustrating ability to see given that it has no counter play (Shooting down the plane doesn't stop the ability), it results in one less shot to kill for most tanks (medium tanks suffer greatly from this as one less shot is huge. Difference between escaping or exploding in a fireball), and is rather RNG dependent. You can get four penetrating shots in a row and destroy a Panther or nothing penetrates at all. It does reward flanking and overwhelming a target but this benefits mainly Call Ins units of Soviets due to their generally higher penetration and HP.

Instead of doing increased damage Mark Target would rather increase penetration of a target. Call Ins would benefit less of this considering their penetration but will help against the heaviest tank. The main bonus of this change however would be Soviet stock units. Suddenly T-34-76s can assuredly take on both Panzer 4 variants on equal terms. Two T-34-76s can hunt down a Panzer 4 without constantly bouncing shots. SU-85s and 76s will be able to penetrate King Tigers and Panthers reliably rather than let RNG take the reigns. This change would be more geared toward making a more consistent, less RNG gameplay. I do not know how much the increased penetration would be. Enough for Tank Destroyers to penetrate any German tank (Not all the time however) with Soviet medium tank being able to penetrate most German tanks consistently.

This would encourage more combined arms plays given a Soviet player can confidently deal with German tanks combined with this ability and not of a RNG battle.

Of course shooting down the plane will result in the effect wearing off. I'd suggest covering the Tank in smoke would also postpone the effect until it wears off but I think that might be too far.

To make the ability more worthwhile on TDs, if it was just swapped to pure penetration which may not be useful for the SU-76 and SU-85, would an received accuracy penalty on the target unit also help make the ability less RNG so units can land their more of their shots at the indicated target?

inb4 t70 kills tiger

First lets "fix" Germanys get out of jail free card blitz and smoke on tanks, then talk about mark target.

It's a great idea. +1

Giving increased accuracy wouldn't be as useful considering the relative penetration of Soviet Tank Destroyers. Against medium tanks and below? Yes it would help but of the more heavily armoured heavy tanks? I'd say no. Another thing is it would help out the T-34-76s considerable as it could effectively engage Axis medium tanks. (Excluding the Panther) With the buffed penetration it would be able to be on even ground with them, maybe even a greater advantage due to the T-34s rate of fire. One thing is this Mark Target change is not a nerf or buff per say but a redesign in a sense. I'd argue a buff more so considering the fact as it'd greatly help out stock Soviets with the heavier armour of german tanks.

First lets "fix" Germanys get out of jail free card blitz and smoke on tanks, then talk about mark target.

Attack ground and snares are hard

EDIT: On topic I think is an excellent idea and the plane being shot down causing the effect to wear off would off interesting counter play. Do you think that the Command Panzer V should have it's mark target function differently or the same way?

I would like to see the Panther Mark Target get tweaked as well due the high penetration of Germany weaponry. It's rather harsh give most of Allied tanks relative fragile armour. With the bonus damage OKW tear through those affected. But I'd suggest that be another topic considering this is of the Soviet Mark Target.

I don't recall a thread discussing Mark Target.

What exactly does this ability do in terms of stats?

I think one way to "diversify" this ability's usefullness is that it does things like increase the threshold for critical hits (re normally you have to be like below 75% health for AT grenade to critically damage, so a Marked vehicle removes this requirement.

Or just make it deal additional base damage AND double penetration power. It would be lame to have a Marked Vehicle that can still run away to still bounce off shells and the only consistent solution is rely on call-in vehicles.

You can also conversely change the effects to high chance of vehicle stun when hit, so that the enemy player needs to keep their tank far from a fight and either forfeit the ability to make use of that unit, or greatly risk having it be a shell magnet and that prevents it from run away. Besides the circumstantial Button, there is no other means for Soviet players to stun enemy vehicles. TWP on the other hand operates per every non-doct Ostheer unit (plus AT gun) but costs munitions and one-time use per spend. IMO that's a big enough difference, certainly bigger than Panzerfaust vs. AT grenade.
I mean I for one would love an opportunity to negate the effects of Blitzkireg Tactics on a Tiger rather than several seconds of being able to do more damage IF I actually penetrate.

An even simpler solution would be that instead of a classic Stun, a Marked vehicle just gets temporarily immobilized by stunning the driver whenever it gets hit it, and becomes a sitting duck for a few seconds, and you must keep scoring heads to keep it that way until the Marked Target effect wears off. Since it is just immobile it can still fight back, requiring Soviet players to either overwhelm or rely on flanking. ANd because it can still shoot,the vehicle still has a chance to escape once the threat destroyed long enough for Mark Target wears off, forcing affected players to enact a different tactic than "click Blitz ability for freedom and repairs". I believe this is actually the opposite of Stuart's Stun shot, which stops the target vehicle from attacking, but it can still move.
This also might end up benefiting the opponent as well: if his Marked tank is still able to ward off your attacks, he can just have artillery or covering fire can smash your units if you're not careful.
Still at the same time, a sitting duck of a Tiger is far easier to disable, flank and destroy than if it can take more base damage than usual but can still Blitz away. I don't think this would be that overpowered seeing as it's one doctrinal ability that negates the vet1 ability of three non-doc medium tanks (and a heavy), and the ability itself is found in only three Soviet commanders, one gives Guards and the other Shocks, and the third shitty Parisans.

Th only problem with this idea is that it replaces T-34 ramming, but really who the hell uses that? And if they do, this offers a munitions-based alternative, plus far less RNG dependent.

I would like to see the Panther Mark Target get tweaked as well due the high penetration of Germany weaponry. It's rather harsh give most of Allied tanks relative fragile armour. With the bonus damage OKW tear through those affected. But I'd suggest that be another topic considering this is of the Soviet Mark Target.

I think it's 50% more damage instead of 35%. You can cast it if you have vision, the only difference is the plane.

I'm not 100% sure but marked targets have higher priority.

Attack ground and snares are hard

Attack ground has less accuracy as you rely on scatter hits and snares don't prevent Blitz*

*(only mines)

i don't want destruction of the plane to end mark target (unless the cost get's decreased) but i want to duration lowered to 20 seconds so you can back a tank out but then have it come back into a fight instead of just having to hide in a corner for 60 seconds.

the problem with the plane getting shot down is OKW and to a lesser extend OKH pintel mounts (the AA system in coh2 is far too simplistic...).

I can already see the threads.

"RERIK NURF PTRS! MAH TIGURZ AND PANZORS GIT SHREDDED!"

Just make it stops when plane is shooted down.

Mark target works great as it currently does, something that can actually make you kill a heavy tank in a reasonably short period of time.

If it was changed would happily take say, 20% extra penetration, 35% increased damage as then hits would be more reliable - and you should only be using the ability on heavy tanks so the penetration bonus would cater it more to heavy tanks.

+1

I made a similar post like a 1.5 years ago saying basically the same.
As you point out, it'll make flanks (hitting rear armor) and overwhelming armor less effective in oposition to give more steady results and benefiting frontal engagements (TD and AT guns).
It will also be a nerf against combination of abilities with teammates, offmaps and artillery.

I'm gonna clarify. If this is meant to be done then theres other features which requires a rework:
-PV Mark vehicle
-Heat shells (despite they also need fixing)
-Ambush camouflage 150% damage bonus

Some food for thought.

Mark vehicle > Chance to pen > Average number of shots

T3476 vs OKW PIV
>35% +damage (3 hits)>> 51.3%/34.2% >>> 5.84/8.77
>35% +penetration (4hits)>> 69.2%/46.2% >>> 5.78/8.65
>35% -armor (4hits) >> 78.9%/52.6% >>> 5.07/7.60

Su85 vs KT
>35% +damage (6h) >> 53.3%/48% >>> 11.26/12.5
>35% +penetration (8h) >> 72%/64.8% >>> 11.11/12.34
>35% -armor (8h) >> 82.1%/73.8% >>> 9.74/10.84

Thank you for data Elchino7, quite a interesting chart as it shows less armour results in greater chance of penetration. Maybe Mark Target should decrease that targets armour as you said it would help out some off map abilities like IL-2 strafe with penning German tanks. I also assure you that I had no intent of stealing your idea haha. But on the chart it does certainly show a clear line with bonus damage and bonus penetration. Seeing that I feel it would be best considering how low the stock penetration of Soviets are. Particularly of the T-34-76s. Even if damage and 35% pen chance are the same number of shots when you throw in RNG it all gets thrown out of wak it terms of bonus damage. Of course it is the average like you posted.

What of PV Mark Vehicle? I am not familiar with that ability unless you mean Command Panther? That is quite the combo I recall basically two shot a KV-2 but it is a rare combo simply due the fact of needing two doctrines. Also of requiring a coordinated team but I am not saying that should be looked at as well. Considering I play every faction I would like to see things be given and taken from both Axis and Allied for a more even battlefield.

Yeah, Panther Command Vehicle mark target.

Just make it stops when plane is shooted down.

no way.

i like playing 3v3+.

and in those modes, allies recon plane barely survives one pass.

i.e. this happended to me in sittard

me: ok, i'm going to recon. get ready to bomb the lefh. it's here (i ping the location).

teammate: i'm ready.

me: here it goes.

as the recon plane was crossing the middle river,

teammate: it got shot down.

me: yeah i saw. . .. . .