Soviet T3 need cost increase or Ost T3 cost reduction!

Maybe in theory crafting world but no sane OKW player converts his first truck literally at the start of the game and establishs average map control after that. 5 minute Puma is quite rare and hard to pull off a 7 minute m5 or stuart in the new patch is very much a reality

So get a 7 minute Puma. Its only going to be useful when the Stuart and the M5 hit the ground anyways.

Light armor arrives at around minute 7/8. I don't see the problem with any of them except the M5, to which I would like to see:

1) AA upgrade locked behind T4.

-or-

2) AA only suppresses + deals full damage when set up, like a kubel.

1) AA upgrade locked behind T4.

-or-

2) AA only suppresses + deals full damage when set up, like a kubel.

Id vote for option 2. Because 1 is just repeating the mistakes of the past that totally wrecked the flame halftrack.
But again Im not sure this is a problem.

Lets say you want to harass the cut-off on Moscow with grens, but keep getting pushed of by an M5. At that point you should have a Pak with you to force the M5 away. It isn't a big deal to begin with.

So get a 7 minute Puma. Its only going to be useful when the Stuart and the M5 hit the ground anyways.

Light armor arrives at around minute 7/8. I don't see the problem with any of them except the M5, to which I would like to see:

1) AA upgrade locked behind T4.

-or-

2) AA only suppresses + deals full damage when set up, like a kubel.

If you want to counter a M5 or Stuart you want mines, cloaked racktens, and JPIV not a Puma

If you want to counter a M5 or Stuart you want mines, cloaked racktens, and JPIV not a Puma

Puma works perfectly fine. It has 10 more range, can spot for itself as well. Puma is also less of an investment than a JP4, and will arrive in time to stop the stuart/ soviet T3.

Raketens + mines work, but I would personally prefer a more mobile solution (thats why I USF)

Id vote for option 2. Because 1 is just repeating the mistakes of the past that totally wrecked the flame halftrack.
But again Im not sure this is a problem.

Lets say you want to harass the cut-off on Moscow with grens, but keep getting pushed of by an M5. At that point you should have a Pak with you to force the M5 away. It isn't a big deal to begin with.

The problem comes with the fact that the AA HT can fire on the move, allowing it to do speedy hit and run attacks that can utterly wreck your units. It may not be a problem, I may just be a worrywart, but if it comes down to a change, I think it should be one of these two. I prefer #2 as well.

How about we let the meta settle before we nurf another once useless sov unit for 2 years back into the grave.

Maybe players haven't adapted yet to the new playstyle.

And it is true if the Sovs gets a bunch of caches and rushes T3 it is out at 7:00.
Because they know these particular OST players regular 2v2 build is many times a very heavy T-1 build that can very well skip T-2 and hold out waiting for T-3.
And rushing T-3 would for sovs be the perfect counter for a heavy T-1 build.
Maybe, just maybe this isn't as much of a balance issue as it is play and counterplay. And adapting to what your enemy is doing`?

There is absolutely no reason to not rush T3 against Ostheer now and there is absolutely no way an Ostheer player can ever do a T1 -> T3 strat against soviets. Ostheer T1 does not provide anything to deal with a Quad HT and the fuel gap is just too big to try and use a StugG as your first AT.

In the previous patch (live version now), you could punish a T1 -> T3 strat with a quad or T70 rush. If you did it well you could cripple the ostheer right then and there, but the Ostheer always has had the option to go into T2 and turtlemode until T3. This has not changed with the new patch except that Soviet T3 is now earlier and Ost T3 is now later. This simple fact has made it harder for Ostheer, but this is not the whole problem. Players like Katitof don't have the deeper understanding of game mechanics to see further than this and thus will insist it is a simple #adapt problem of getting a Pak a minute earlier and the rest of the game would play out the same way it does now. It doesn't.

The deeper impact of the change is how the rest of the game plays out. I will write this out in detail for one last time because you are my fellow bear and I love you, and hopefully people like Katitof will read it and stop their asinine ramblings.

Here in an in-depth analysis of Soviet T3 rush in the live version VS Soviet T3 rush in the 21st patch (opponent is Ostheer).

Live version:
In the live version, getting a Quad HT or a T70 has a risk and a reward. If you play it out right and/or the Ostheer makes a few mistakes you can potentially cripple the Ostheer player. If the Ostheer defends properly you can at least buy yourself enough time to get out a T34/76 to defend against the P4, if you fail your rush by hitting a mine or just running into a PAK40 all the time you are now behind and the enemy can punish you with a P4 or Ostwind. If the Ostheer player played well enough to survive, the Ostheer player can rely on a PAK wall for defense; forcing the Soviet to invest in indirect fire like (heavy) mortars to deal with the PAKs, which in turn means that they have less manpower available to produce an AT gun against a P4, giving the P4 some shock value. It's a back-and-forth game that has proven to be quite balanced in 1v1 and 2v2 with (with double ost and double sovs).


New patch:
Now besides the fact that the tech gap between Soviet T3 and Ostheer T3 has been increased by several minutes worth of fuel, the new patch has a combination that has not been seen before: Early quadHT/tank with a mobile AT/Arty platform, the SU76, as a cheap and quick follow up. People here seem to underestimate this unit, or seem to underestimate the numbers of these units you can produce in what time frame. Here is a fact: You can get a quad AA HT out and 2 SU76s, with halfway-enough fuel for a 3rd SU76s at the same fuel-threshold as you could a produce a single P4 assuming the Ostheer player went for T1+2+3 and has not made any scout cars or halftracks. And this is assuming the Soviet player has totally failed to get any more than 50% of the map with his light vehicle rush. In reality, it is fair to assume the Soviet player will easily be able to field the third SU76 by the time the first P4 hits the field. These little buggers in these numbers do not only hard-counter the P4 (and any other Ost T3 unit), but they also provide a huge amount of indirect firepower to deal with the only thing that was keeping the Ostheer player standing up this point: the PAK wall turtle. GG, WP, no back and forth and game over before it has even properly entered the midgame. The Ostheer tech-tree provides nothing to counter this scenario, not even 2x 222 (they might trade with the Quad, but after that they become vet-food for the first SU76).

That is the problem with the new patch, so in summary:
- Gap between Soviet light vehicle and Ostheer medium tank has been increased significantly, reducing risk and increasing reward for Soviet quad rush.
- New unit combination of light anti-infantry vehicle/tank with solid mobile AT and arty removes shock value of P4 and through sheer volume easily forces back the PAK wall.
- Non doctrinal Solution for Ostheer does not exist.

There is no such thing as a 5 minute Puma.

There is no such thing as 5 minute puma as it was a vehicle without a role: if you build puma first or after flak ht it had nothing to fight against until callins. Now with the changes to sov and usf tech it will be needed vehicle and viable counter to light vehicles as intended. In less than 2 weeks you will see a OKW Puma OP thread, mind my words.

There is absolutely no reason to not rush T3 against Ostheer now and there is absolutely no way an Ostheer player can ever do a T1 -> T3 strat against soviets. Ostheer T1 does not provide anything to deal with a Quad HT and the fuel gap is just too big to try and use a StugG as your first AT.

In the previous patch (live version now), you could punish a T1 -> T3 strat with a quad or T70 rush. If you did it well you could cripple the ostheer right then and there, but the Ostheer always has had the option to go into T2 and turtlemode until T3. This has not changed with the new patch except that Soviet T3 is now earlier and Ost T3 is now later. This simple fact has made it harder for Ostheer, but this is not the whole problem. Players like Katitof don't have the deeper understanding of game mechanics to see further than this and thus will insist it is a simple #adapt problem of getting a Pak a minute earlier and the rest of the game would play out the same way it does now. It doesn't.

The deeper impact of the change is how the rest of the game plays out. I will write this out in detail for one last time because you are my fellow bear and I love you, and hopefully people like Katitof will read it and stop their asinine ramblings.

Here in an in-depth analysis of Soviet T3 rush in the live version VS Soviet T3 rush in the 21st patch (opponent is Ostheer).

Live version:
In the live version, getting a Quad HT or a T70 has a risk and a reward. If you play it out right and/or the Ostheer makes you can potentially cripple the Ostheer player. If the Ostheer defends properly you can at least buy yourself enough time to get out a T34/76 to defend against the P4, if you fail your rush by hitting a mine or just running into a PAK40 all the time you are now behind and the enemy can punish you with a P4 or Ostwind. If the Ostheer player played well enough to survive, the Ostheer player can rely on a PAK wall for defense; forcing the Soviet to invest in indirect fire like (heavy) mortars to deal with the PAKs, which in turn means that they have less manpower available to produce an AT gun against a P4, giving the P4 some shock value. It's a back-and-forth game that has proven to be quite balanced in 1v1 and 2v2 with (with double ost and double sovs).


New patch:
Now besides the fact that the tech gap between Soviet T3 and Ostheer T3 has been increased by several minutes worth of fuel, the new patch has a combination that has not been seen before: Early quadHT/tank with a mobile AT/Arty platform, the SU76, as a cheap and quick follow up. People here seem to underestimate this unit, or seem to underestimate the numbers of these units you can produce in what time frame. Here is a fact: You can get a quad AA HT out and 2 SU76s, with halfway-enough fuel for a 3rd SU76s at the same fuel-threshold as you could a produce a single P4 assuming the Ostheer player went for T1+2+3 and has not made any scout cars or halftracks. And this is assuming the Soviet player has totally failed to get any more than 50% of the map with his light vehicle rush. In reality, it is fair to assume the Soviet player will easily be able to field the third SU76 by the time the first P4 hits the field. These little buggers in these numbers do not only hard-counter the P4 (and any other Ost T3 unit), but they also provide a huge amount of indirect firepower to deal with the only thing that was keeping the Ostheer player standing up this point: the PAK wall turtle. GG, WP, no back and forth and game over before it has even properly entered the midgame. The Ostheer tech-tree provides nothing to counter this scenario, not even 2x 222 (they might trade with the Quad, but after that they become vet-food for the first SU76).

That is the problem with the new patch, so in summary:
- Gap between Soviet light vehicle and Ostheer medium tank has been increased significantly, reducing risk and increasing reward for Soviet quad rush.
- New unit combination of light anti-infantry vehicle/tank with solid mobile AT and arty removes shock value of P4 and through sheer volume easily forces back the PAK wall.
- Non doctrinal Solution for Ostheer does not exist.

This is my problem, so keep saying that it's L2P Adept or shit. It doesn't change anything to fuel gaps and stuff

Maybe players haven't adapted yet to the new playstyle.

And it is true if the Sovs gets a bunch of caches and rushes T3 it is out at 7:00.
Because they know these particular OST players regular 2v2 build is many times a very heavy T-1 build that can very well skip T-2 and hold out waiting for T-3.
And rushing T-3 would for sovs be the perfect counter for a heavy T-1 build.
Maybe, just maybe this isn't as much of a balance issue as it is play and counterplay. And adapting to what your enemy is doing`?

right now to get 1v1 game in a patch mod you spend like half an hour cuz ussualy they put you in 2v2 or 4v4 games. I dont make much difference betw them.
Baiscaly they didnt play enough yet. And whining non stop.
"Doesnt have a counter BS"

you should get t3 to counter t70 or m5 ??? r u crazy? t2 has panzergrens and pak40 to counter any kind of mechanized units

Right now there are several mins when germs are supposed to play defensively, tech and adapt to oponent. Not just trying to basepin opponent with heavy T0-T1 build in which they have big advantage.


And if they succeed in that they get a reward - bunch of medium tanks of their choice ostwind, panz4, stug, puma can be earlier not sure how much.
Id addition to medium armor. They can field a second OP sniper at this moment. And what they do in mid game is just insane - constant MP bleed if you can micro them both.

right now to get 1v1 game in a patch mod you spend like half an hour cuz ussualy they put you in 2v2 or 4v4 games. I dont make much difference betw them.
Baiscaly they didnt play enough yet. And whining non stop.
"Doesnt have a counter BS"


Right now there are several mins when germs are supposed to play defensively, tech and adapt to oponent. Not just trying to basepin opponent with heavy T0-T1 build in which they have big advantage.

Are you starting with your BS again? Check Aerohanks posts since that's 100% better then any suggestion that you make.

Pak 42's are ok against them, but can't really hard counter it.

I rolled eyes at this point.

Kappa pak 40 thanks for mentioning. Mobile phone keyboard is too small OpieOP

Dear diary, today I learned that OH can't make an AT gun within seven minutes.

Oh wait.

Here's how enemy light armor generally goes for me:
First T3 vehicle comes into view. Of course I'm prepared for this because I'm not a total scrub, so right off the bat it gets hit by my pak. Now it's at half health.

Now there's a decent chance it'll hit one of the Tellers I cleverly placed instead of buying LMG42s and Panzershrecks. If not, there's also a high chance that it gets fausted. If either of those things happen then it is practically dead and everything is fine.

If those things don't happen then it's driven off, and though I haven't won the war the battle is mine. I advance my line either way. This repeats, with my own armor coming in later, until I surround his base.

T3 isn't hard to counter. The Faust alone is a major threat towards it. Or course you've got five T1 units all upgraded with weapons and you think a couple pgrens with Shrecks are gonna hold the line then you're gonna have a bad time. AT infantry isn't effective against light armor because they can't hit it.

Get an actual AT gun, lay some mines and dig in with strategic superiority. You'll be fine.

Here's how enemy light armor generally goes for me:
First T3 vehicle comes into view. Of course I'm prepared for this because I'm not a total scrub, so right off the bat it gets hit by my pak. Now it's at half health.

Now there's a decent chance it'll hit one of the Tellers I cleverly placed instead of buying LMG42s and Panzershrecks. If not, there's also a high chance that it gets fausted. If either of those things happen then it is practically dead and everything is fine.

If those things don't happen then it's driven off, and though I haven't won the war the battle is mine. I advance my line either way. This repeats, with my own armor coming in later, until I surround his base.

T3 isn't hard to counter. The Faust alone is a major threat towards it. Or course you've got five T1 units all upgraded with weapons and you think a couple pgrens with Shrecks are gonna hold the line then you're gonna have a bad time. AT infantry isn't effective against light armor because they can't hit it.

Get an actual AT gun, lay some mines and dig in with strategic superiority. You'll be fine.

Thats really shows that you are good 1v1 player.
This basicaly concludes or finishes off this BS thread. Thanks a lot.

Of course if you've got five T1 units all upgraded with weapons and you think a couple pgrens with Shrecks are gonna hold the line then you're gonna have a bad time.

I m afraid unfortinately thats exactly what they want subliminaly. Get 5-6 T1 units upgraded with lmgs to basepin any player and then 30 sec window for T70 and get panz4 for fair 1v1 fight with T70.

Ostheer players normally always go heavy T1 because you need to establish decent map control in order to stay in the game. Ostheer squads also drain your MP pretty heavily on the reinforcement costs so you tend to be really skint on MP early in the game making the 320 MP Pak a hard to achieve goal.

A smart player won't let you get in faust range, relying on that for countering an M5 or T-70 is laughable.

It's been such a convoluted and contentious road to for the Ostheer Scout Car slowly turning into the role the Puma had in vCoH.

It was a glaring hole in Ostheer's army from the get go. But there are no bad decisions by Relic.

Unfortunately I expect more whining BS here and there. Why this is BS? It is cuz they didnt have a chance to play enough 1v1 in patch mod. Cuz they ussualy put you in 2v2 or 4v4. And you wait half of an hour to get 1v1 game.

Play like 20 1v1s. Watch if top 100 1v1 players are having issue with that after like 2 weeks after patch. And then it coud be justified claim. Right now its 100% whine of 2v2 heroes.

Here's how enemy light armor generally goes for me:
First T3 vehicle comes into view. Of course I'm prepared for this because I'm not a total scrub, so right off the bat it gets hit by my pak. Now it's at half health.

Now there's a decent chance it'll hit one of the Tellers I cleverly placed instead of buying LMG42s and Panzershrecks. If not, there's also a high chance that it gets fausted. If either of those things happen then it is practically dead and everything is fine.

What if your opponent:

1. "Cleverly" sweeps your mines,
2. is not a total scrub / avoids your Pzfausts and
3. uses his light vehicles on your flanks?

#theorycraftingFTW

Play like 20 1v1s. Watch if top 100 1v1 players are having issue with that after like 2 weeks after patch. And then it coud be justified claim. Right now its 100% whine of 2v2 heroes.

I am a top 100 1v1 player with all factions.

Soviet will still be the strongest faction after the patch imo, I understand your reasoning for making t3 cheaper for werh. What would happen with the USF vs werh match up though?

How about making sov t3 more expensive but leaving werh tech how it is. If you actually both make t3 more expensive and werh cheaper it would be unbalanced imo.