Soviet T3 need cost increase or Ost T3 cost reduction!

Hey Guys,

Last week I'm testing out the new patch in some inhouse 2v2s. I consider myself as an ok player.

Unfortunatly I have lost so many games with double ostheer because of the M5 and T70's which arrive way too early before the Ostheer can counter it. Yesterday my opponents had in 7 minutes a quad M5 which denied the game for us for atleast 6-7 minutes, without a real counter to it. Pak 42's are ok against them, but can't really hard counter it. also Schrek Pgrens get pinned too fast to be effective.

When you finally got some T3 up you're so far behind that mostly of the time you can only make a Pak wall (which will be obliterated by Katushya's)since your opponent already will have the cheapass SU-76's

In my opinion the soviet T3 structure need atleast 30 fuel increase or the Ostheer structure needs an insane cost reduction to make this game atleast some more balanced. Currently soviets have no weaknesses and only strenghts.

Greetings,

Iron Emperor

The fuel costs to reach T3 got decreased by 40 / 50 (if you go T1) fuel which is too much.

In addition to that, OST T3 got delayed by 40fuel which makes it even worse.

SOV T3 definitely needs to be more expensive. T4 needs to be less expensive in return.

I agree. Double Ost vs Double Sovs feels very one-sided in the new patch.

The game starts out rather evenly, with both sides having a solid selection of infantry, support weapons and light vehicles. Then at the ~7:00 mark the Soviets get the M5 quad which provides enormous shock-value in that it reinforces, has long range suppression and high damage against infantry, and has enough penetration to chew up 222s. Even after getting hit by a PAK40 round the M5 can still easily kill a 222. The M5 quad is like the 2013 flamer halftrack all over again: Too much fire power too soon in combination with on-field reinforcement; the only difference is that the M5 does not need to get into AT-nade range in order to do its damage.

SU76s are a cheap follow up that do great work against both the PAK40s and Ostheer T3 units, and the fact that the M5 is only 30 fuel means that you will be able to afford one of these light tanks by the time a panzer 4 rolls out. On some maps, the map-control provided by the M5 can snowball so hard that a second SU76 is already on the field by the time the Ostheer player rolls out their P4. The situation becomes even more dire if the ostheer player wants to try to go for T4, in which case his first panther will meet a wall of AT guns, SU76s and SU85s that all outrange the panther and will completely nullify the panther.


My suggestion is:
- Require T4 to be build to unlock the M5 quad upgrade.

Reason: This will still make the M5 an early viable option to do reinforcement pushes (like the Ost HT) but will force the soviet to invest in the more expensive, non-reinforcing, non-suppressing T70 if he wants to have early anti-infantry firepower. This is important as the T70 comes later, thus giving the Ostheer more breathing room and a few more minutes of fuel income before getting pushed off the map. Currently the M5 quad is just a way better option as it does everything the T70 does and more, but comes earlier and at a fraction of the fuel cost.

The late-game quad upgrade will still ensure that the M5 will be useful after the initial push if you do decide to go M5 over T70. Unlike the FHT upgrade, the M5 quad still provides excellent late-game fire support due to it's long range and suppression.

Hopefully this change alone could make the matchup more fair, but I fear further adjustments need to be made.

My suggestion is:
- Require T4 to be build to unlock the M5 quad upgrade.

YES!

this is an amazing suggestion honestly

i also dont understand why they increased the building costs for wehr buildings as they said that they wanted to make tech more accessible.

The T70 isn't a big deal but the su76 and the m5 quad make it extremely difficult to progress...

germs have a huge advantage in the opening due to the fact that they have grens mortaers mgs and snipers right from the start.
Fast T3 is the only way to counter heavy T1-|T2 play. Otherwise they would base pin any player.

Sure no cost increase is nedded. Allis playing from behind in the opening its a compensation.
Now must germ player prepare for T3 making 1 AT gun. And AT guns are hard to micro. Kind of good.

SOv players previusly was doing the same preparing fro luchs or flak

I think they increased the cost of germ T4 to make a window for sov T3 units.
Thats really balances the game. Totaly right desicion.

right now to get 1v1 game in a patch mod you spend like half an hour cuz ussualy they put you in 2v2 or 4v4 games. I dont make much difference betw them.

Baiscaly they didnt play enough yet. And whining non stop.
"Doesnt have a counter BS"

you should get t3 to counter t70 or m5 ??? r u crazy? t2 has panzergrens and pak40 to counter any kind of mechanized units

So I can't counter everything since my T3 is too expensive. You can build 2 tanks before I can make 1 tank. Fair deal you say? If I got my tank on the field it gets hard countered immediatly

Tanks are easy to micro. Axis must counter T3 units with AT gun. And decent players succeed in that.
Now Axis cant skip T3 and paks as they used to. Rushing to panz4 to easy win.

Clearly you haven't played the patch yet where you get roflstomped by light tanks. And I do see myself as a decent player with good micro

I pointed out Ostheer's severe disadvantage in teching in other topics but got beaten back by the waves of idiots and fanboys...

Dont even get me started on how dead T4 is going to be in anything smaller than a 3v3.

SOv players previusly was doing the same preparing fro luchs or flak

Uhm, no. Soviet players just called in Guards

I think they increased the cost of germ T4 to make a window for sov T3 units.
Thats really balances the game. Totaly right desicion.

That change doesn't matter at all for 1v1. T4 hasn't been viable this patch and it won't be viable next patch.

@aaa. Have you even played the new patch in a custom game?

Having a flexible opening potential with Ostheer does not magically grant you huge mapcontrol. You still have the same amount of manpower to spend on units. If my soviet opponent opens with a sniper, 3 conscripts and a flamer scout car, I am not going to magically find a 5/6-squad combination in my Ostheer T0/T1 that is going to push him right of the field.

T4 is not accessable anymore Kappa since you have to get your counters even faster

Well i guess ill put the numbers up in here too...

(In BLUE are the costs to unlock their entire tech tree, and in GREEN, are the costs to rush for their LAST tier.)

SOV (Start with 50 Fuel)
40
80
90
50

260 - 210

Wehr (Start with 20 Fuel)
40
45
50
20
75
80

310 (Cannot realistically skip any tier buildings in a close game).

OKW (start with 40 fuel)
40
40
80

160+33.3% = 210 160


USF (Start with 15 Fuel)
50
60
120

230 - 170

Well i guess ill put the numbers up in here too...

(In BLUE are the costs to unlock their entire tech tree, and in GREEN, are the costs to rush for their LAST tier.)

SOV (Start with 50 Fuel)
40
80
90
50

260 - 210

Wehr (Start with 20 Fuel)
40
45
50
20
75
80

310 (Cannot realistically skip any tier buildings in a close game).

OKW (start with 40 fuel)
40
40
80

160+33.3% = 210 160


USF (Start with 15 Fuel)
50
60
120

230 - 170

Thanks Corsin I hope aaa understand the huge difference now

Uhm, no. Soviet players just called in Guards

Guards won't standing long enough to knock out Luchs and Flak. They will simply wiped by the auto-cannon.....

And a single ZiS-3 will also easily be flanked by Luchs. Yes Flak seems harder to Flank them, but it's also hard for an AT gun to pursuit

Guards won't standing long enough to knock out Luchs and Flak. They will simply wiped by the auto-cannon.....

That depends on how many Guards you have

Total fuel costs for teching only tell a part of the story. What is more important is the relationship between teching cost and the shock value of the units produced by the tech.

For example, if faction A could tech to tanks for X fuel cost, and faction B could tech to tanks for 2X fuel, then the tanks of faction B do not take twice as long to tech too as those of faction A; they take longer. This is because the tanks of faction A had shock value that give faction A more map control, thus reducing faction Bs fuel income, and thus delaying his tanks.

This is part of the problem with the new teching system. The window for Soviet T3 units against Ostheer is rather large. But when Soviets go for the M5 quad, the window is HUGE. By the time this window has closed, the Soviets will have massed so much fuel that the first Ostheer tank has completely lost his shock value.

I think this could all be solved by adding a AT half track (ala coh1) or a puma to ost T2.

The fact that Ost has no light tank hurts them.