Tuning Pack OKW P4

Now GTFO whine somewhere else Ostherlitz, this is P4 thread.

Because ISG will easily defeat maxim spam and inf blobs Sovietof. yep.

Because ISG will easily defeat maxim spam and inf blobs Sovietof. yep.

If it will be cheaper, it will have a chance. One ISG on map almost means nothing. 2 ISGs on map are something to be feared.

Support guns do great jobs. 2x a support gun and it can give your opponent a hell lot of trouble. I've had a 2v2 game were there were 2x OKW with 2x a Support gun Kappa. No fun

I love how I suggest an incredibly marginal fuel adjustment (5 fuel on 135 isn't even really a fucking buff. It's so marginal it may as well be a tweak) and everyone jumps on either a massive nerf or buff bandwagon, or "OKW are broken I'm angry gimme attention!!111!11!!"

Considering the pricing of other OKW vehicles, the resource penalty and the old call in price, yes I think the fuel cost is too much.

If the tank wasn't in T4 I would think differently, but at the moment it is overpriced. I played around with them in the alpha and they still got mauled by m10s despite being priced at double the cost. You can't really say the same about a 85 or an E8 vs a puma.

See, I'm not saying the P4 should be under priced because of the fuel penalty. I'm saying it's currently overpriced and the fuel penalty makes the overprice all the more painful and important to fix, in my opinion

I'm a fucking fool for thinking people on this forum can keep their cool

I love how I suggest an incredibly marginal fuel adjustment (5 fuel on 135 isn't even really a fucking buff. It's so marginal it may as well be a tweak) and everyone jumps on either a massive nerf or buff bandwagon, or "OKW are broken I'm angry gimme attention!!111!11!!"

haha this funny

For some people internet is the place to finally be the massive arrogant angry c*** they always were at heart with impunity, but in this thread I think its still acceptable.

I think relic (and us) needs more playtesting to decide on the proper fuel cost. For now they just made sure OKW doesnt get a cheap goto medium tank for every game. Good approach and keeps angry trolls at bay.

But people keeps forgetting that with new tech change, both SU and USF medium comes much later and if they spend fuel on light armor like T-70, even more so. So the PzIV will arrive earlier than T-34/85 or Ez8.

I never really saw the need for a "generalist" tank for OKW, if you're really hurting for fuel, risk the Puma or just live with Volksblob until you can get Panther/ KT. That it's "generalist" pretty much means it'd be either too expensive and people will just defer to almost every other OKW vehicle, or it's too effective and replaces all of those vehicles.
IMO OKW was never really "generalist" by design, and either way the closest you had to an all-round good unit was Volks or Panther, and the Panther was at least expensive whereas Volks you need to constantly spend manpower which may drain teching or vehicles.
In fact I'd go as far as to say the bigger reason for such changes is more to artificially breathe new life into the game more so than ironing out issues. Switch a unit from DLC to core and suddenly it's like they made a new game!

I never really saw the need for a "generalist" tank for OKW, if you're really hurting for fuel, risk the Puma or just live with Volksblob until you can get Panther/ KT. That it's "generalist" pretty much means it'd be either too expensive and people will just defer to almost every other OKW vehicle, or it's too effective and replaces all of those vehicles.
IMO OKW was never really "generalist" by design, and either way the closest you had to an all-round good unit was Volks or Panther, and the Panther was at least expensive whereas Volks you need to constantly spend manpower which may drain teching or vehicles.
In fact I'd go as far as to say the bigger reason for such changes is more to artificially breathe new life into the game more so than ironing out issues. Switch a unit from DLC to core and suddenly it's like they made a new game!

I have to disagree with this.

OKW having no medium armor always gave the tech game an erratic feeling since your first armor was mostly a panther or a KT. A giant leap from Puma, Volks and Kübel.

PIV not only gives a strong alternative to bridge the gap between mid and late game, but also allows to further compensate the lack of a dedicated AI tank (Ostwind, Sherman, etc.), to still be able to stay in the game if you re losing the infantry vet game. Its simply a great additional option for OKW allowing for a more diverse gameplay.

Your last two sentences are a very negative interpretation of a very good development. Switching things up in a way which improves gameplay (as pointed out above) is a great thing, relic deserves kudos for.

I have to disagree with this.

OKW having no medium armor always gave the tech game an erratic feeling since your first armor was mostly a panther or a KT. A giant leap from Puma, Volks and Kübel.

And I was udner the impression that this was more or less the point of playing as OKW. I've managed to win games (standard or custom) pretty well without having to resort to Elite Armoured and saving for 210 fuel for medium tanks.

Which BTW leads me to my next point: if OKW needed a alternative bridge for the gap, then an easier change would probably have been making the Elite Armoured 2x P4J call-ins modified to lower CP, reduced to one per tank, and adjusting cost as appropriate. At least then the doctrine would find much more use because it becomes "that medium tank commander"; before this patch, 2x medium tanks at 210 fuel is a lot to ask for, especially since you still require a lot of munitions to upgrade each of them.
Personally I think this more minor change would have solved the issue of needing a generalist tank as well as being good development, as you claim it to be. I don't necessarily deny it is for everyone else, I do however think it could have been done better, for less headache and modification of the game as it is.
They could even have applied the doctrinal building idea to the P4J as well- it's accessible if you chose Elite Armoured, but still requires T4 to build.

For myself, yes my first armour has almost always been Panther. If I chose Elite Armoured, often I must choose between Panther or 2 medium tanks, but considering the cost gap, Panther almost always wins out. However I have always thought of myself as in the minority and presumed that most (pvp automatch) players go more for Puma. The late CP, cost and therefore late-game stage that the P4Js come in has always been an issue that needed adjustments in those areas...not by making them available to every OKW player regardless of commander choice.

Your last two sentences are a very negative interpretation of a very good development. Switching things up in a way which improves gameplay (as pointed out above) is a great thing, relic deserves kudos for.

Wrong, it's a very negative interpretation to those that happen to like, agree with and benefit from the changes.

And I was udner the impression that this was more or less the point of playing as OKW. I've managed to win games (standard or custom) pretty well without having to resort to Elite Armoured and saving for 210 fuel for medium tanks.

This is your definition of the OKW faction, not the "official design".

Which BTW leads me to my next point: if OKW needed a alternative bridge for the gap, then an easier change would probably have been making the Elite Armoured 2x P4J call-ins modified to lower CP, reduced to one per tank, and adjusting cost as appropriate. [...]

Improving gameplay (i.e. bridging the mid/late game gap for OKW) should never be achieved by commander choice. The OKW PIV as introduced right now is no meta-breaking Ubertank, its just an additional option to compensate for the lack of a fundamental asset every other faction has (medium armor, late game AI armor). I dont understand your argument against it.

Wrong, it's a very negative interpretation to those that happen to like, agree with and benefit from the changes.

Which are all players? And relic? Who does not benefit from this change? Even allies-only super fanboys wont constantly lose their games to PIV spam now. You make a statement which implies that relic is not interested in their actual product from a gameplay perspective when introducing those changes. Though these changes seem very reasonable particularly if you have followed the discussion about the lack of OKW medium armor and resulting problems throughout the past year.

This is your definition of the OKW faction, not the "official design".

What is the "official design"? Or am I right to assume there really isn't one?

Improving gameplay (i.e. bridging the mid/late game gap for OKW) should never be achieved by commander choice. The OKW PIV as introduced right now is no meta-breaking Ubertank, its just an additional option to compensate for the lack of a fundamental asset every other faction has (medium armor, late game AI armor). I dont understand your argument against it.

Improving gameplay IS acheived by commander choice, like it or not. I don't personally think that's a bad thing, though if it is the ONLY way to improve gameplay then that's something else.
If there was a problem with the lack of medium armour, then perhaps OKW was flawed from the start. Which I don't agree with.
My argument against it you don't understand simply because you think pretty much anything you deem necessary should be core units, not found through doctrines. I don't agree with that assessment, since IMO the OKW works fine without it, and frankly being an alternative to Panther and Puma more or less proves that, it's there as a choice, but no loner as a commander choice. But there's a pretty big difference between 210 fuel 2x P4Js and 1x P4J for 135...a difference that wouldn't occur if they merely adjusted that commander, alongside lower CP of course. IMO that was the real problem with Elite Armoured- the actual unit call-in comes too late, competes with Panther, and units are more a medium-late, not late-KT.

Which are all players? And relic? Who does not benefit from this change? Even allies-only super fanboys wont constantly lose their games to PIV spam now.

I'm a player. I don't see this as the best choice in design. Therefore no, not all players. You can can exaggerate all you want about majority or most, but not all. A change that does not cause problems isn't always a positive and optimal solution.
The result of this change is that more people will use Panzer4. Nevermind being more like Ostheer than I think is necessary, but also IMO people who argued (or whined?) about lack of medium armour as OKW just didn't want to play OKW in a different manner.

On the P4J specifically, since it's clear Relic isn't going to budge about this (and they didn't back when this was first introduced, consider that), the least they can do is introduce elements to the P4J that makes it stand out more from Ostheer's P4. True it already comes with skirts, but I'd say different abilities would at least make it so you're not so much playing like Ostheer, though I can't say I have any ideas at the moment.

[...] I'd say different abilities would at least make it so you're not so much playing like Ostheer, though I can't say I have any ideas at the moment.

I guess that s your main point of critique. OKW becomes too similar to Ostheer by getting a PIV as a stock unit. Regarding the essential difference between those two factions (teching, income pen, unit comp, etc.) and the PIV being a signature tank for the wehrmacht in general, I'd still disaggree but I understand your point.

If commander choice should have a bigger impact on the game or not, is a difficult discussion. I can see arguments for both sides. Since access to commanders is somehow money-dependent, it can easily drift off into a pay-to-win scenario, I'd hate to see. If coh2 had coh1 doctrine structure, I'd possibly aggree with your view.

In terms of gameplay, introducing the PIV as a OKW stock unit is simply just an improvement. Since it gives more options to deal with a clear factional disadvantage without breaking balance or fundamentally changing the meta.

Now GTFO whine somewhere else Ostherlitz, this is P4 thread.

Someone clearly has never used ISG before....




Back on topic, I thought the patch note said the Panzer IV's were "in line" with each other.

Then we have posts claiming that OKW panzers have more armour.

What's the deal?

Are they "in line" with the exception of skirts?

It is more or less my main critique; when I first read the changes my reaction was "WTF what's the point of EAD and playing as OKW if the meta is really just same as Ostheer?"

End of the day even with the small stat chances in armour, what you get is not so much an OKW version of Panzer4, but rather both Axis factions revolve around the same Panzer4 unit. Hence my suggestion that the characteristics of OKW's Panzer4, while remaining a medium tank, ought to come with a few differences, namely in abilities, like say having integral Emergency Repairs or Panzer Commander (though granted, seeing as how those doctrinal abilities themselves are rather limited, those are hardly the best ones to choose).

In real life, Panzer IV Ausf. J had very slow turret traverse. I don't mind the extra armour, but Relic could leave the slow turret rotation. Would fit nicely with the OKW's rag-tag unit line-up.

All in all, I'm happy to see Panzer IV as non-doctrinal medium tank in OKW arsenal.

It is more or less my main critique; when I first read the changes my reaction was "WTF what's the point of EAD and playing as OKW if the meta is really just same as Ostheer?"

End of the day even with the small stat chances in armour, what you get is not so much an OKW version of Panzer4, but rather both Axis factions revolve around the same Panzer4 unit. Hence my suggestion that the characteristics of OKW's Panzer4, while remaining a medium tank, ought to come with a few differences, namely in abilities, like say having integral Emergency Repairs or Panzer Commander (though granted, seeing as how those doctrinal abilities themselves are rather limited, those are hardly the best ones to choose).

The OKW PIV has significantly different veterancy than the Ostheer PIV.

Panzer IV Ausf J. Medium Tank
Unlocks the 'Combat Blitz' ability
+60% turret rotation speed, -25% scatter
-30% reload, +20% rotation speed, +10% ac/de-celeration
+12.5% range, -25% scatter
+53.85% accuracy when moving, +45.8% sight range

Panzer IV Medium Tank
Unlocks the 'Blitzkrieg' ability
+30% armor, +40% weapon rotation speed
-30% reload, +20% rotation speed, +20% ac/de-celeration

As you can see the OKW vet gives more turret rotation and reduces scatter by a very significant margin making it very effective against enemy infantry; which is what the Ausf J is supposed to be effective against. It's not something you want to rely on for AT because it's going to have problems versus multiple 85's and especially heavies like IS2's but it gives OKW something to even out the mid game.

For a while now OKW has been somewhat anemic and UP compared to Ostheer due to lack of a non-doc suppression platform that can stick around and lock down area's (The Flak Track and Kubel becoming extinct when AT guns and medium armor hit the field) outside of using their Schwer aggressively as well as the fact they had nothing between the P2 and the Panther and the P2 is dropped in popularity significantly since EVERYONE uses Guards now which directly counter OKW light armor.

Fuss spam is so common because it's much more efficient than getting Obers while Fallsch are to fragile and JLI don't pack enough punch. Personally I would like it if Obers came with 2 StG44's standard and when they got the IR StG44 upgrade it replaced the remaining two rifles. Make the LMG34 upgrade replace 1 of the StG44's.

Volks also should have a anti-infantry upgrade. Why you ask? Because right now Volks literally only exist because they can tote around shrek's. If you could upgrade your Volks for a cheaper price of say; 60-70 munitions, with 3 StG44's after converting your second HQ (regardless of what that HQ is) then it would give a reason to make Volks after minute 10. That or just make Volks come with 2 StG 44's standard at the start of the game but just make them worse than normal ones and increase the price of Volks to like 260 MP.

It's annoying that the faction that's supposed to be all about using extreme amounts of automatic weaponry have more rifle units than literally any other faction in the game.

In real life, Panzer IV Ausf. J had very slow turret traverse. I don't mind the extra armour, but Relic could leave the slow turret rotation. Would fit nicely with the OKW's rag-tag unit line-up.

In real-life the T-70 turret was manned by one guy. In-game the T-70 can rotate the turret while firing the machine gun and reloading the main gun all at once. Bit of a task for one person isn't it? But CoH2 isn't real-life, just inspired by it.

In real-life the T-70 turret was manned by one guy. In-game the T-70 can rotate the turret while firing the machine gun and reloading the main gun all at once. Bit of a task for one person isn't it? But CoH2 isn't real-life, just inspired by it.

That I know, as Company of Heroes always took plenty of artistic license. That was just my proposal of a gimmick for the OKW's medium tank.