Cruzz's The More You Know

As a general rule of thumb SMG, AR (including BAR) and HMG weapons have focus fire false.
LMGs and vehicle mounted MGs have focus fire true.

There are one or two exceptions like the Royal Engineer Sten, but that weapon just has really weird stats for some reason.

You can look up all the weapons on the website below and it shows their focus fire status:
https://coh2.serealia.ca/

Thanks!

The more you know:

Pathfinders can snipe, I&R pathfinders cannot snipe.

Pathfinders have an ability called pm_airborne_assassinate_shot which I&R pathfinders don't have.

The more you know:

Pathfinders and JLI seem to have better accuracy at far range than near range. Very interesting...

Pathfinder m1 garand has F/M/N range of .92/.575/.345 while JLI g43 have 1.15/.92/.575

Can anyone confirm this with gameplay?

Also Pathfinders and JLI have more sight than snipers; 50 vs. 45

The more you know:

Pathfinders can snipe, I&R pathfinders cannot snipe.

Pathfinders have an ability called pm_airborne_assassinate_shot which I&R pathfinders don't have.

that is probably a singe player ability


The scoped "critical" weapon weapon they use is identical thought. Pathfinder get 2 and IR get 1.

The more you know:

Pathfinders and JLI seem to have better accuracy at far range than near range. Very interesting...

Pathfinder m1 garand has F/M/N range of .92/.575/.345 while JLI g43 have 1.15/.92/.575

Can anyone confirm this with gameplay?

Also Pathfinders and JLI have more sight than snipers; 50 vs. 45

The scoped "critical" weapons do have reverse DPS curve similar to LMG and are better at long range.

On the other hand Pathfinder use also "elite" carbine rifles that make them pretty good a close range also while JLI use the gren k98

that is probably a singe player ability

I thought the ability is passive, that its not user activated. I thought this is the snipe chance that Pathfinders get on low HP models I believe. This is what I found in the _mp (multiplayer) pathfinder soldier entity and I am pretty sure it is in multiplayer.

The scoped "critical" weapon weapon they use is identical thought. Pathfinder get 2 and IR get 1.

The scoped "critical" weapons do have reverse DPS curve similar to LMG and are better at long range.

I believe this critshot weapon is the M1 garand scoped for Pathfinders. The other 2 guns are Paratrooper m1a1 carbines which have better near range than close range.

Strategy on countering Pathfinders: bum rush them. I&R pathfinders do better at close range than normal PFs

On the other hand Pathfinder use also "elite" carbine rifles that make them pretty good a close range also while JLI use the gren k98

Yes but when you upgrade to G43s they get the crazy 1.15/.92/.575 accuracy

Yes but when you upgrade to G43s they get the crazy 1.15/.92/.575 accuracy

JLI get only 1 G43 sniper rifle. And it has semi-sniper rifle stats with the inverted DPS curve and a critical against <70% hp models.

Same for the Pathfinder scoped M1 Garands, except their HP threshold for criticals is 40% health.

Thanks!

https://www.coh2.org/topic/84257/useful-interesting-threads-2-0

I still have to clean them up but that's a good compilation of several different useful sources of information.

I'll reactivate this since I have a question that is not really worth opening a separate thread for, especially since there is a lot of discussion going on at the moment.

I am trying to recalculate the DPS of infantry. I have used the formula that is posted somewhere here as well as in Vipper's DPS guide from 2016 (see spoiler)
Show Spoiler

For the K98 of vet0 Grenadiers, Serealia gives a reference of 5,988 DPS at range 0.

When I calculate it however, I can't reproduce this.

For total damage, I use the following stats (see spoiler, all stats taken from Serealia; if there is only a range of values given I use the mean of the borders of the interval) and get to a value of 77,792 damage for a full cycle.
Show Spoiler


For the time needed for this full cycle, I get 12,1725 seconds using the values below. This overall brings me to a DPS of 6,39 which is almost 7% off the value given in Serealia.
At range 35 I get a value of 2,28 which is fairly close to 2,263 given in Serealia using the same formula.

Show Spoiler


Now, one oddity that I can't check at the moment is that Grens have a MIN of 5 and MAX of 6 for the reload frequency. From my understanding this means that they fire sometimes 6, sometimes 7 shots (i.e. 5/6 cooldowns) before reloading. Assuming that this is wrong and they'd always fire 7 shots (for whatever reason, a standard clip had 5 shots plus potentially one chambered), I am able to almost match the DPS at range 0, but applying this logic to range 35 will then yield a DPS value that is about 6% less than the reference on Serealia.

What am I doing wrong?



For reference, I'll give a short explanation of my calculations below:
Show Spoiler

I'll reactivate this since I have a question that is not really worth opening a separate thread for, especially since there is a lot of discussion going on at the moment.

I am trying to recalculate the DPS of infantry. I have used the formula that is posted somewhere here as well as in Vipper's DPS guide from 2016 (see spoiler)
Show Spoiler

For the K98 of vet0 Grenadiers, Serealia gives a reference of 5,988 DPS at range 0.

When I calculate it however, I can't reproduce this.

For total damage, I use the following stats (see spoiler, all stats taken from Serealia; if there is only a range of values given I use the mean of the borders of the interval) and get to a value of 77,792 damage for a full cycle.
Show Spoiler

For the time needed for this full cycle, I get 12,1725 seconds using the values below. This overall brings me to a DPS of 6,39 which is almost 7% off the value given in Serealia.
At range 35 I get a value of 2,28 which is fairly close to 2,263 given in Serealia using the same formula.

Show Spoiler

Now, one oddity that I can't check at the moment is that Grens have a MIN of 5 and MAX of 6 for the reload frequency. From my understanding this means that they fire sometimes 6, sometimes 7 shots (i.e. 5/6 cooldowns) before reloading. Assuming that this is wrong and they'd always fire 7 shots (for whatever reason, a standard clip had 5 shots plus potentially one chambered), I am able to almost match the DPS at range 0, but applying this logic to range 35 will then yield a DPS value that is about 6% less than the reference on Serealia.

What am I doing wrong?



For reference, I'll give a short explanation of my calculations below:
Show Spoiler

Their near aim distance is set at 0 so I think you should be using mid values for cooldown, ready aim, and fire aim.

Their near aim distance is set at 0 so I think you should be using mid values for cooldown, ready aim, and fire aim.

Thanks for the reply. Did not do the trick unfortunately.
This yields a DPS of 3,66, which in turn also does not correspond to the reference of Serealia neither at range 0 nor at range 25 (the intended mid range).

Given how values in CoH2 are generally calculated, I also would not assume that values that are both range dependent AND are randomly picked from an interval suddently "jump" once you cross a certain range. I personally would assume that the minimum and the maximum get calculated depending on range, and then a number between those is picked. However I have no data on this, so if anyone knows, it would be great to share that knowledge.

[...]

I noticed something similar when comparing DPS values plugged from the weapons_report.csv (exported from the attribute editor) and those on Serealia's site. Most of the time both are quite a bit off and i also won't get these jagged curves Serealia has for some weapons (e.g. the Gren LMG).
After scratching my head for a while the most plausible explanation I've come up with is... rounding.

There's a lot stuff where the need for rounding is pretty obvious; the number of bullets fired per burst for automatic weapons clearly needs to be an integer value (and is probably rounded down to the nearest integer), hence if this varies with distance there will be some sort of breakpoints that the formula you use won't produce. The same should also apply to things like reload frequency as in your example, and depending on how this gets rounded there will be a jump from 6 to 7 shots per cooldown at some range.

Then there's also the issue of frames and if these are rounded or truncated as well somehow. For example, there's a note in the editor that the fire and ready aim times needs to be at least one frame (0.125 s), but on Serealia's site there are often lower values given at close range (due to the n,m,f multiplier for aim time).

To cut a long story short, there are a lot of unknowns in the DPS formula that I've got no idea how these are actually integrated in both the live game and Serealia's DPS code. So if anyone has more info on that I'd also greatly appreciate to know!

Thanks for the reply. Did not do the trick unfortunately.
This yields a DPS of 3,66, which in turn also does not correspond to the reference of Serealia neither at range 0 nor at range 25 (the intended mid range).

Given how values in CoH2 are generally calculated, I also would not assume that values that are both range dependent AND are randomly picked from an interval suddently "jump" once you cross a certain range. I personally would assume that the minimum and the maximum get calculated depending on range, and then a number between those is picked. However I have no data on this, so if anyone knows, it would be great to share that knowledge.

Yeah this is how I assume it works as well. The stats for everything with a n,m,f values given should be interpolated linearly between these and, if necessary, rounded either up or down accordingly. I've done some tests with the FlakHT a long time ago and at least for the number of rounds fired per burst this is how it works.

EDIT: just realized you were referring to the min/max ranges, not distances. for those i'd assume the mean is used in Serealia's DPS formula, whereas a random number is picked between the upper and lower bounds for calculation in-game. that means breakpoints, e.g. for reload frequency in your example, would occur at a fixed distance in the calculated DPS curve, but could shift a bit to lower or higher distances in-game (and thus making it a nightmare to test reliably).

...

Well maybe that's it. But that would mean that the stats as shown there might be pretty useless to assess unit balance if we apparently get 7% difference.

Well maybe that's it. But that would mean that the stats as shown there might be pretty useless to assess unit balance if we apparently get 7% difference.

i wouldn't say useless, but surely they should be taken with a grain of salt. in the end, i guess only rigorous testing if and how stuff like the alleged frame limitations and rounding affect the true dps output in-game could give an answer to how accurate these formulae really are.

but given how difficult this can be even for relatively simple things like tank guns (where usually most of the variables are neither range dependent, nor randomized between min/max bounds), i'm afraid proper testing would be an enormous undertaking.

i wouldn't say useless, but surely they should be taken with a grain of salt. in the end, i guess only rigorous testing if and how stuff like the alleged frame limitations and rounding affect the true dps output in-game could give an answer to how accurate these formulae really are.

but given how difficult this can be even for relatively simple things like tank guns (where usually most of the variables are neither range dependent, nor randomized between min/max bounds), i'm afraid proper testing would be an enormous undertaking.

I am not so sure. Cheat mode already calculates damage taken. What one only has to do is divide that damage by time.

I guess one could made a mode that created a target either indestructible and calculated the DPS or with a set number of HP 10.000 (?) and devide by the time it take to destroy.

I am not so sure. Cheat mode already calculates damage taken. What one only has to do is divide that damage by time.

I guess one could made a mode that created a target either indestructible and calculated the DPS or with a set number of HP 10.000 (?) and devide by the time it take to destroy.

yes i think this would be the best way to do it. i've kind of done something similar in the past already to validate the results of my simulator. the tricky part is the precise timekeeping (although this can be mitigated by measuring over a long timespan) and especially distance measurement, for which unfortunately no good tools exist in cheatmod.

plus, a lot of modding will be necessary to constrain the variables you want to measure (e.g. how aim time changes with distance and if it is rounded to the closest frame or not) as much as possible.

very much possible i'd say, but also very time-consuming for sure.

yes i think this would be the best way to do it. i've kind of done something similar in the past already to validate the results of my simulator. the tricky part is the precise timekeeping (although this can be mitigated by measuring over a long timespan) and especially distance measurement, for which unfortunately no good tools exist in cheatmod.

plus, a lot of modding will be necessary to constrain the variables you want to measure (e.g. how aim time changes with distance and if it is rounded to the closest frame or not) as much as possible.

very much possible i'd say, but also very time-consuming for sure.

For correct range maybe one can chang the max range of the weapon to desired distance?

i wouldn't say useless, but surely they should be taken with a grain of salt. in the end, i guess only rigorous testing if and how stuff like the alleged frame limitations and rounding affect the true dps output in-game could give an answer to how accurate these formulae really are.

but given how difficult this can be even for relatively simple things like tank guns (where usually most of the variables are neither range dependent, nor randomized between min/max bounds), i'm afraid proper testing would be an enormous undertaking.

I specifically meant balancing discussions since those in parts often resolve around "unit A is 5-10% stronger than unit B". And if this seems to be the general error margin of Serealia than we can't really judge unless the difference is really big.

I did some tests yesterday, currently working on it. What I can say is that the current formula is 100% not correect, but I need some more testing and modding before I can make a decent statement. Give me maybe 1-2 weeks until I can work it out (if I can at all).

I specifically meant balancing discussions since those in parts often resolve around "unit A is 5-10% stronger than unit B". And if this seems to be the general error margin of Serealia than we can't really judge unless the difference is really big.

I did some tests yesterday, currently working on it. What I can say is that the current formula is 100% not correect, but I need some more testing and modding before I can make a decent statement. Give me maybe 1-2 weeks until I can work it out (if I can at all).

Why don't you have a look at weapons report and the formula it uses?

Why don't you have a look at weapons report and the formula it uses?

Because 1. my import into the table program is screwed up completely, but also this formula is super convoluted and 2. I have reason to believe that this 0,125 "jitter"/correction times between different phases exist which will behave differently between weapons. And even only a quarter of a second makes a decent difference if the whole shot cycle is only 3-5 seconds long. At least enough that a lot of the balance discussion revolving around DPS will still stay false.