Loitering JU-87 anti-tank stuka too strong?

That was an idiot not to move when seeing the red flare.
So as any other offmap arty, losing to CAS is only yourself, you can blame.

1 second mark: ju-87 begins to fire b4 entering the map

3 second mark: 37mm rounds hit first scott

5 second mark: both scotts dead

unless the scotss were either already in motion, or the player notices the smoke before 1sec mark. strafe is impossible to avoid.

1 second mark: ju-87 begins to fire b4 entering the map

3 second mark: 37mm rounds hit first scott

5 second mark: both scotts dead

unless the scotss were either already in motion, or the player notices the smoke before 1sec mark. strafe is impossible to avoid.

Edge

of

Map

Well this thread has changed topic quickly.
In any case, I think the complaint about the nature of the CAS Stuka pass is legitimate insofar as its effectiveness should not be determined by its proximity to the mapedge. However, unless that is the case, it really is pretty meh.

as stated in the other thread I begun, the problem with the stuka is the cost effectiveness if the P47 was as effective as people are saying it is I would continue using USF but it is not and yet this "skillful" ability is was more effective for a cheaper price every game I have played whether it was custom or automatch has had some form of it whether is be the loiter, cas strike or the ROFL this area is suppressed but only for allies which if an aircraft was going over head I'm pretty sure all troops would hit the deck and be pinned, so the axis have the best tanks and tank destroyer tank(panther) 'check', best antitank infantry(panzer grens with panzershrek, volks with panzer shrek)'check', best anti tank field gun(pak40, raken is meh while out of building)'check' and now best air units, an outdated for the time dive bomber that not even a flying tank(IL2) can deal with and does not compare with the glorious world police(USA) airforce.

LOL, I hate to say that you seems quite having tears of rage from, CAS, to be truth, your own mistake.
You know there are CAS coming and you park your SU85 at the edge of map? Seriously?
Even the slowest ISU152 can dodge the narrow thin AT strafe target hitbox.

"the edge of the map" Makes up a huge portion of 1v1 and some 2v2 maps. That last line is just plain not true.

US offmap 105 was almost that devastating, so as its P47 bombing run, and Brit FOO arty was like one sec.

Exactly, you just proved my point: COH1 abilities and COH2 abilities are different and the CAS has no business being as powerful as it is in COH2 because none of the other abilities are. Thank you.

USF armor company super heavy arty are more ridiculous because:

- have red flare, but no sound -> I named it ninja arty
- heat seeking tracking target, the shell fall exactly on the head on its target

They have a red flare, a distinct heavy 'thud' noise and a provide a good 10 seconds for you to respond. Shells do not track. Getting hit by that arty is like getting hit by CAS in the middle of the map; it's fair game.

CAS is in fact a good step ahead than the one click big area denial skillplane.

- it doesn't track, you have to predict when the hitbox land
- devastating when it hit, does nothing if miss

Your first point is fair, but it does not justify the firepower of the ability near the edge of the map, which, as mentioned, make up a large portion of small maps.

Second point makes no sense, no ability does damage when it misses.

By this logic, complaining CAS is like complaining nades wiping your squad, it is predictable, dodge-able, and fail only the cause of your mistake. It is legitimately a L2P issue.

Every faction gets grenades, only one faction gets CAS strafes. That's the difference.

It's ironic that you can actually identify balance issues such as the 120mm but once something is OP on the Axis side it's simply a L2P issue, going back all the way to the march deployment patch. Maybe you are just an axis fanboy.

Exactly, you just proved my point: COH1 abilities and COH2 abilities are different and the CAS has no business being as powerful as it is in COH2 because none of the other abilities are. Thank you.

Bullshit.

They have a red flare, a distinct heavy 'thud' noise and a provide a good 10 seconds for you to respond. Shells do not track. Getting hit by that arty is like getting hit by CAS in the middle of the map; it's fair game.

Are we playing the same game?

Every faction gets grenades, only one faction gets CAS strafes. That's the difference.

It's ironic that you can actually identify balance issues such as the 120mm but once something is OP on the Axis side it's simply a L2P issue, going back all the way to the march deployment patch. Maybe you are just an axis fanboy.

I am just a fanboy of faction designed heritage from COH1 US/Wehr.

Ost - good
USF - heritage from bullshit Brit -> shit
OKW - Not even a designed faction for 1v1 -> not good
Sov - Out of question, getting all abusive shit heritage from Brit, PE -> Such a piece of failfuck
Brit - NDA, but I like it

Dames Dames, keep up the shit throwing to each other. Ontopic: I have to agree with Aerohank, I have never lost so much to any doctrine than CAS as Allies. How smaller the map, how harder it is to dodge. Of course you can dodge it and have the devastating power miss his target, but you can't keep that up for the rest of the game. Eventually you'll lose something to it.

So I must give up sides of the map because of CAS?
So.. On rails and steel I must fight only along the middle road?
Crossing woods, I musnt send tanks to fight fuel?
etc
etc
etc...

It's undodgeable if it's used agasint unit near the edge (on maps like crossing woods you will always have tank near the edge at some point).

You can dodge it only if you see the first flare and you have unit matched, but still, sluggish units like ISU won't dodge it.

Come on... 3sec to notice first flare, click 2 hotkeys and 1 mouse + acceleration? Unless you are watching the unit in the right time, you have to be freaking machine to dodge.

I like that it requires some skills in fact, when compare to loitering, but taking out Sherman/Jackson is too much.

It also provides hmmmm "second chance" because if enemy's tank escape with engine damage, all you need to do is to use recon+strafe to finish it.

All doctrines have some weak points. I cannot find any weak point about the CAS.

Looks like the angry furries have arrived for their daily dose of hypocritical axis bashing

Looks like the angry furries have arrived for their daily dose of hypocritical axis bashing

I've to disagree. I love to play axis (60% of all games which I play is axis, preferably Ostheer) But I do think that the CAS is just too strong for it's current cost (and the ability to dodge it if it's CAS-doctrine)

That's something different than hypocritical axis bashing. Aerohank is the bear with the most critical and well builded arguments.

Scotts are pretty much a light vehicle, two were parked on top of each other, and totally failed to move. Surprise surprise they got killed. Should have been spaced out, and preferably attemted to move.


This thread is about the loiter, not the CAS strike.

Looks like the angry furries have arrived for their daily dose of hypocritical axis bashing

You should see or hear me play Axis if you think this is the case. The constant overpowered Guard Motor meta and the elite rifle flamer spam make me want to uninstall the game. However, that does not mean that everything on the axis side is somehow immune to being overpowered.

What really gets me about plane call-ins is that the crashes are so devastating that whenever my units shoot at the plane I tense up and pray that they don't shoot it down. After all, a shot down plane can sway the match drastically; there are times I've lost all of my armor or major concentrations of units to crashes. I wish I could turn off the AA features.

And CAS really just rustles my jimmies. Even the dumb players that convert to muni whenever possible are a hassle just because there's so many LMGs and Shrecks floating around, and then you toss in the actual planes. The smart players only convert when they need it and actually allow themselves to build up some armor. At that point the CAS weakness is nullified.

And those planes are annoying as all hell. Every single engagement I have to dodge planes left and right, and then if I retreat the bastard recon+dive bombs my base and oh, there goes my whole army.

I can't wait for CAS to drop for me. I'm gonna use it so hard and just relish the sensation of infinite munitions.

Also the IL-2 sucks. It's like the pilot opens the cockpit and shoots out onto the battlefield with his personal revolver, then sprinkles firecrackers below him so it looks dangerous. Sometimes it'll strafe a squad and not even kill two men. Heavy cannons my ass.

Moving out from smoke of Stuka has minimum effect because it tracks. Go ahead and load up cheat mod and see. Use the CAS strafe if you like and you will see it also tracks (although only slightly), but the loiter Stuka is on the hunt and nearly undodgeable. These things are extremely good for cost and too effective on the field. Planes should provide a good player an opportunity to turn a battle, not click and destroy target tank.

In larger games Stuka strafe is out right ridiculous in effectiveness. In smaller games if you don't have AA (because you might not as Sov) GL.

Also plane crashes are stupid.

No off map can deal as much damage per strafe as Stuka CAS. The Stuka mg strafe only pins, and deals no damage, so it requires other units nearby to deal damage to the pinned units, otherwise its a waste of resources. The P47 will never kill a tank on the first(/second) pass if the tank is at full health, meaning that the P47 is a supplementary source of AT as well. The IL2 strafe is also only useful to support engagements. An IL2 strafe that is not supporting an assault will do close to no damage.

The one exception is the Stuka CAS strafe/ loiter. Each of these abilities deals 120 damage per cannon round (same as that of panzershreck), allowing it to easily kill full health medium tanks in one run. It makes no sense for a loiter to be able to one shot tanks, especially when the USF already struggles late game to keep their armor alive, and have no high HP heavy generalist tanks as a fallback option like the other 3 factions. Off maps should never be able to do all the work by themselves, this is why the old USF mechanized artillery was so broken, you could one shot OKW base buildings, which are a significant investment, equivalent in cost to a Jackson/Sherman.

The Stuka CAS doctrine single strafe should get some kind of fix to allow it to not arrive instantly when the target is near the edge of the map, while still being just as effective against targets in the middle of the map. This way players will have 4 seconds or so to react to the strafe at all times, just as they would for any other offmap. Remember, claiming "edge of map" is not an excuse. An offmap strike should have no advantages based merely on its distance from the edge of the map.

The Stuka Loiter strike should be toned down to be more inline with the P47 strafe. This means that it should not have the ability to one strike tanks. dealing 320 damage over the strafe would be a good number, so it would still kill light armor (which can dodge shots by moving), but no longer one shot Shermans and Jacksons, which are significant fuel purchases for the USF player. Remember, it can still attack infantry and support weapons, so it denies an area to not just armor, but infantry as well, unlike the P47.

Please tell me why I am being unreasonable, and not in a way that has your entire rebuttal being "nope".

I think its overperforming for cost alright, and I would very much support the suggestion for constant off-map timing regardless of map position.
With that being said, the CAS Stuka gun run would be perfectly fine for cost under the premises you outlined as it is easy to dodge when not coming in close to the map edge. If it would not kill mediums, there would be no point to it.
As for loiter Stuka, it gets more complicated. If it was merely effective against light vehicles and support weapons it would be virtually useless. In fact, in practical gameplay terms, you'll almost never want it to prioritise inf over vehicles, as the main application of it is to kill tanks, and especially heavies like IS-2s and ISUs which OH otherwise struggles with. In fact, OH lategame abilities should from a balance perspective be somewhat more potent relatively, as you'll almost always play on the backfoot given equal player skill. So its a bit of a conundrum really.

I think its overperforming for cost alright, and I would very much support the suggestion for constant off-map timing regardless of map position.
With that being said, the CAS Stuka gun run would be perfectly fine for cost under the premises you outlined as it is easy to dodge when not coming in close to the map edge. If it would not kill mediums, there would be no point to it.
As for loiter Stuka, it gets more complicated. If it was merely effective against light vehicles and support weapons it would be virtually useless. In fact, in practical gameplay terms, you'll almost never want it to prioritise inf over vehicles, as the main application of it is to kill tanks, and especially heavies like IS-2s and ISUs which OH otherwise struggles with. In fact, OH lategame abilities should from a balance perspective be somewhat more potent relatively, as you'll almost always play on the backfoot given equal player skill. So its a bit of a conundrum really.

The thing is, the change I floated on the loiter strafe would not make it ineffective against mediums. It would still deal good damage to them, about 50% HP. What it does change is the strafes' ability to one shot. It the strafe could not kill a tank with one run, (the same way the P47 strafe does), it would still deal heavy damage and force all tanks out of the area. It just wouldn't punish the player severely for having medium tanks get stuck on a piece of shrub or the like. You can always chase the tanks with your own armor and deal the rest of the damage if you need to, and in this way the stuka loiter would be an area denial and assault support ability, just like the P47.

Since we're talking about CAS now

Blew up a t-34 just sitting there with a stuka strafe. Direction was flying towards the tanks side armor. I thought it was a bit much but I don't really feel pity for the Soviet faction after facing bullshit like sniper spam and maxim spam way back

Would be interesting if CAS loiter had 2 planes and did with Comm_Ash suggest so it's harder to shoot down and does less damage overall.

Nerf Stuka CAS damage by 10-15%, buff IL2 strafe by 10-15% and raise cost to 200 muni. There, fixed. No need for stupid overnerfs or overbuffs.