T-34/85's + mark target hardcounter the JT/ele just fine, you should also have some form of indirect (like the 120mm that handily enough comes in the same doctrine and is also OP as fuck) to delete paks at will.
Jackson spam
2 Jun 2015, 01:12 AM
#141
Posts: 738
2 Jun 2015, 01:22 AM
#142
Posts: 2280 | Subs: 2
Permanently Banned
T-34/85's + mark target hardcounter the JT/ele just fine, you should also have some form of indirect (like the 120mm that handily enough comes in the same doctrine and is also OP as fuck) to delete paks at will.
you cant be serious?
marked plus 85's isn't enough. unless the ele/JT is right outside the sov base
There is no recording in all WW2 history of a piat actually knocking off a vehicle. Yes, it was THAT bad.
2 Jun 2015, 01:26 AM
#143
Posts: 2561
A hard counter is a single unit that will usually heavily dominate the unit it counters in a forward engagement.
ISU-152, P-47, IS-2, Marked Target, M36, Shocks.
Abilities aren't hard counters as they are not always on field. ISU and IS-2 are strong softcounters, but are also not hardcounter. And a single M36 isn't going to be able to take down a heavy without support either. I don't even know why you brought up shocks in a conversation about heavies.
Obviously the allies can build a combination of units that are able to easily take on heavies, or else they wouldn't be balanced at all. I'm not even saying it's a bad thing that they don't, since that was how the USSF and USSR were designed to use numbers and combined arms in place of a single efficient unit. But it is a undeniable fact that neither allied faction currently has a single heavy tank counter unit.
2 Jun 2015, 02:12 AM
#144
Posts: 55
"Abilities aren't hard counters as they are not always on the field"
This makes no sense. A hard counter is something that, once you encounter it, it is already basically too late for your unit to survive/stay on the field. AT strafes that are going to kill tanks in a single pass are absolutely hard counters to those tanks. CAS anti-infantry strafe can also be considered a hard counter to soviet infantry, who have to either retreat all the way to the base every time it happens. US can counter this one if they happen to have a vet captain, so in that case the captain would become the hard counter to the strafe - as soon as you hit the "on me" ability, the CAS strafe just become a complete waste of ammo.
This makes no sense. A hard counter is something that, once you encounter it, it is already basically too late for your unit to survive/stay on the field. AT strafes that are going to kill tanks in a single pass are absolutely hard counters to those tanks. CAS anti-infantry strafe can also be considered a hard counter to soviet infantry, who have to either retreat all the way to the base every time it happens. US can counter this one if they happen to have a vet captain, so in that case the captain would become the hard counter to the strafe - as soon as you hit the "on me" ability, the CAS strafe just become a complete waste of ammo.
2 Jun 2015, 02:18 AM
#145
8 Posts: 2470
guys, a hard counter is a unit that preforms better than its cost implies in a comparison between that unit and another. a pak is a hardcounter to tanks and a jackson is a hardcounter to tanks (including the tiger) but that doesn't mean that they always beat tanks. this isn't rock paper scissors; in this case scissors can driver around rock and kill it even though rock still hard counters scissors.
a unit can be a counter (hard or soft) through an ability although obviously how firm the counter is will depend on the unit/ability, just like flanking or smoking an AT gun.
spell check, save me from scissors!
a unit can be a counter (hard or soft) through an ability although obviously how firm the counter is will depend on the unit/ability, just like flanking or smoking an AT gun.
spell check, save me from scissors!
2 Jun 2015, 04:16 AM
#146
Posts: 55
By your definition a KT would not be a hard counter to a rifle squad because it costs way more in relationship to the rifle - this is a stupid metric definition. If a unit or ability can easily wipe another unit, it is a hard counter regardless of cost.
2 Jun 2015, 04:37 AM
#147
4 Posts: 113
Lately I saw a post on another forum complaining about, that the 37mm strafingrun of the CAS would rape Jacksons to much.
2 Jun 2015, 05:05 AM
#148
Posts: 1891
Jackson is one of the few Gucci units the US Forces have, idk why you'd want to nerf it.
-1
-1
The Fascisti Will Pay.
2 Jun 2015, 07:42 AM
#149
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
Jackson is one of the few Gucci units the US Forces have, idk why you'd want to nerf it.
-1
You have the answer in your question.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
2 Jun 2015, 07:48 AM
#150
Posts: 3602 | Subs: 1
Jackson is one of the few Gucci units the US Forces have, idk why you'd want to nerf it.
-1
Because its counter heavies. And Axis dedicated players are usually playing Axis because they like playing with big tanks and super heavies. Which isn't absurd since Ostheer and OKW have the strongest stock tanks and all the best call-in heavies execpt two.
Axis = best stock tanks with panther + KT
URSS = best call-in tank, IS-2
Axis = best heavy AT platform call-in, Pak + Jagtiger + elephant
URSS = best call-in mobile arty, ISU
So when USF comes with jackson, those people tend to cry because, if well managed (or better managed) it simply ruins their pleasure.
2 Jun 2015, 09:44 AM
#151
Posts: 82
6 shots to kill a Tiger is 32 seconds for the Jackson assuming every shot was a hit and every shot was a penetration.
Time to kill a Jackson with a Pak? 12 seconds. And it WILL pen 100% of the time. Clearly this must mean the Pak is OP because its so cheap.....
1 Jackson is a SOFT counter for a Tiger not a hard counter. And further on your other point map control does not produce any more Manpower then not having map control. Manpower is a huge part of its tech cost and actual cost.
Let it go. You are wrong.
Dude the Pak is static.. Further Jacksons can quickly retreat out of danger compared to the tiger. Aswell as being significantly cheaper. This is not a good comparison.
And map control produces more fuel does it not? I know manpower is not affected, but more fuel = more jacksons late game.
I never said to nerf the jackson. I think I suggested a price increase to 150. Either that or a buff to the tiger.
2 Jun 2015, 09:49 AM
#152
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
@Jason
Actually, given USF extremely heavy menpower units and rifles bleeding menpower like pigs, the fuel is never issue for USF player.
People always float fuel after first 2 vehicles, because there is just no way to sustain production with menpower bleed against opponent that isn't passive potato.
If you want jackson to have 150 fuel cost, you better give it 640 hp as well.
And, now sit down and listen to me carefully:
If a unit is losing to its HARDCOUNTER it does NOT NEED BUFF, its INTENDED that TANK loses to TANK DESTROYER.
Its simple concept, let it sink and stop being lolcake.
Actually, given USF extremely heavy menpower units and rifles bleeding menpower like pigs, the fuel is never issue for USF player.
People always float fuel after first 2 vehicles, because there is just no way to sustain production with menpower bleed against opponent that isn't passive potato.
If you want jackson to have 150 fuel cost, you better give it 640 hp as well.
And, now sit down and listen to me carefully:
If a unit is losing to its HARDCOUNTER it does NOT NEED BUFF, its INTENDED that TANK loses to TANK DESTROYER.
Its simple concept, let it sink and stop being lolcake.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
2 Jun 2015, 09:55 AM
#153
Posts: 1225
@Jason:
The Jackson is fine as is, really. The Tiger might indeed need a little attention, but its not because of the Jackson. If your opponent goes double Jackson, bring out the Paks, anchor them with MGs and mass LMG Grens and laugh all the way to the bank, because he simply does not have the unit composition to bleed you or break your support weapon line.
The Jackson is fine as is, really. The Tiger might indeed need a little attention, but its not because of the Jackson. If your opponent goes double Jackson, bring out the Paks, anchor them with MGs and mass LMG Grens and laugh all the way to the bank, because he simply does not have the unit composition to bleed you or break your support weapon line.
2 Jun 2015, 09:59 AM
#154
Posts: 82
@Jason
Actually, given USF extremely heavy menpower units and rifles bleeding menpower like pigs, the fuel is never issue for USF player.
People always float fuel after first 2 vehicles, because there is just no way to sustain production with menpower bleed against opponent that isn't passive potato.
If you want jackson to have 150 fuel cost, you better give it 640 hp as well.
And, now sit down and listen to me carefully:
If a unit is losing to its HARDCOUNTER it does NOT NEED BUFF, its INTENDED that TANK loses to TANK DESTROYER.
Its simple concept, let it sink and stop being lolcake.
By that premise the Jackson could be free and work as 'intended' katitof. There is a concept of cost-effectiveness in this game. The best example is the cost of the KT.
2 Jun 2015, 10:57 AM
#155
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
By that premise the Jackson could be free and work as 'intended' katitof. There is a concept of cost-effectiveness in this game. The best example is the cost of the KT.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
2 Jun 2015, 12:00 PM
#156
Posts: 1604 | Subs: 3
Jason the Jackson is fine. It's a tank working in its intended role.
Costs are similar to the Su85 which actually can take a beating and operate on its own.
The Jackson needs always a spotter and trying to hunt tanks usually ends up in losing the Jackson.
When you back up your Tiger with paks the Jackson can exactly get one shot off before it needs to repair. It's very easy to lose the Jackson,take that into account when talking about costs. In a normal game a Usf player burns several tanks because they have no damage sponges and mediums take all the beating.
Also use the map to create situations where the Jackson can not use its full range and is unable to kite. Play it for yourself and decide then whether it's op.
Costs are similar to the Su85 which actually can take a beating and operate on its own.
The Jackson needs always a spotter and trying to hunt tanks usually ends up in losing the Jackson.
When you back up your Tiger with paks the Jackson can exactly get one shot off before it needs to repair. It's very easy to lose the Jackson,take that into account when talking about costs. In a normal game a Usf player burns several tanks because they have no damage sponges and mediums take all the beating.
Also use the map to create situations where the Jackson can not use its full range and is unable to kite. Play it for yourself and decide then whether it's op.
If you need to know stats of certain unit: http://stat.coh2.hu
Which faction is OP and which is UP? Check it out here
Tips for beginners and wannabe pro's
Which faction is OP and which is UP? Check it out here
Tips for beginners and wannabe pro's
2 Jun 2015, 12:29 PM
#157
Posts: 2561
"Abilities aren't hard counters as they are not always on the field"
This makes no sense. A hard counter is something that, once you encounter it, it is already basically too late for your unit to survive/stay on the field. AT strafes that are going to kill tanks in a single pass are absolutely hard counters to those tanks. CAS anti-infantry strafe can also be considered a hard counter to soviet infantry, who have to either retreat all the way to the base every time it happens. US can counter this one if they happen to have a vet captain, so in that case the captain would become the hard counter to the strafe - as soon as you hit the "on me" ability, the CAS strafe just become a complete waste of ammo.
An ability can counter something, but it isn't a hard-counter due to the dodgeable and momentary nature of abilities. The only exception I would say would be vs static targets which will pretty much be 100% killed with call in strikes.
2 Jun 2015, 14:52 PM
#158
Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2
I wonder if there is someone who agrees with OP at this point...
My controls weren't working
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.
2 Jun 2015, 17:52 PM
#159
Posts: 738
you cant be serious?
marked plus 85's isn't enough. unless the ele/JT is right outside the sov base
Yes, guards motor shits all over most strats and against OKW it's brokenly OP. JT won't do shit when your entire army has been blasted by a 120 the whole game and you've been fighting T-34/85's with no armour while you save up for the most expensive vehicle in the game.
Only time a heavy TD is viable is if your opponent call-in stalled and built nothing but IS-2/ISU's. (and even that is map dependant, against IS-2's on any remotely urban map you are still fucked)
2 Jun 2015, 19:25 PM
#160
Posts: 2280 | Subs: 2
Permanently Banned
Yes, guards motor shits all over most strats and against OKW it's brokenly OP. JT won't do shit when your entire army has been blasted by a 120 the whole game and you've been fighting T-34/85's with no armour while you save up for the most expensive vehicle in the game.
Only time a heavy TD is viable is if your opponent call-in stalled and built nothing but IS-2/ISU's. (and even that is map dependant, against IS-2's on any remotely urban map you are still fucked)
If u are being pressured the entire game and decide to wait for a JT or KT. u deserve to lose
There is no recording in all WW2 history of a piat actually knocking off a vehicle. Yes, it was THAT bad.
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