Ostheer's Panzer IV vs Sherman/T34 Costs

So anyone knows when relic gonna decrease the cost of Soviets Tier 3?

Not ever because the soviets start with more fuel.

Well, I have to disagree with you on this one. Ostheer's T3 is a lot more viable than Soviets T3, and I think we do agree that Ostheer's T3 doesn't have any problem versus USF (at least on paper). Against Soviets, things are different yes, but still a vet 3 P4 is A LOT MORE intimidating than a vet 3 T34. I know, they should be because P4s are more expensive but the difference is greater than the actual fuel cost if you ask me. OKW's puma is ok IMO, specially with the 5 vet system, and the utility it has. But you don't expect the puma to counter an IS2 do you?

PS: That video does not prove anything. That was just pure bad luck. I'm up for some RNG adjustments but come on, that doesn't prove that P4s are 100% useless versus IS2. All that being said, the call in meta should be fixed. starting with some adjustments to stock units.

That was not bad luck at all. even against the rear the p4 only has 50 % of penetrating and dont get me started about the is2 front armour. technically the t-34 has a better change against the tiger then the p4 has against the is2.

T-34/76 is just lack luster, since the Sherman has arrived.

Well, the teching cost is different because Ostheer tech automatically includes LMGs, Panzerfausts, Rifle Grenades, the ability to upgrade panzerschreks and access to a wide variety of units. This gives Ostheer a big edge in battlefield options compared to USF and Soviets.

Does the P4 beat a Sherman?

Does the P4 beat a Sherman?

Yes pretty much in any practical situation.

That was not bad luck at all. even against the rear the p4 only has 50 % of penetrating and dont get me started about the is2 front armour. technically the t-34 has a better change against the tiger then the p4 has against the is2.

Thank you for the numbers.

Ostheer's T3 is a lot more viable than Soviets T3


I think we do agree that Ostheer's T3 doesn't have any problem versus USF (at least on paper). Against Soviets, things are different yes, but still a vet 3 P4 is A LOT MORE intimidating than a vet 3 T34. I know, they should be because P4s are more expensive but the difference is greater than the actual fuel cost if you ask me. OKW's puma is ok IMO, specially with the 5 vet system, and the utility it has.

But you don't expect the puma to counter an IS2 do you?

I mean, it's debatable. I'm ALWAYS getting T3 as Soviets unless I can snooze my way to an IS2/85's, a quick t70 has won me games, ask tightrope. Can I say the same for the Ostwind? Not really... I'd call Wehr T3 a very situational thing, again because of the numbers presented and the actual amount of resources you have to play with, and no, none of those units perform all that well against the USF. Maybe, the Ostwind if they've gone Rifle Coy/ Infantry and you don't see a Cpt.

All I'm saying is, in much the same way you shouldn't expect a T34/76 to counter a Panther, at least not outright. I appreciate that units limitations, during the time frame in which it arrives, because these are essentially shock units, it's like a game of trumps, I play a t70 or 34, something bigger is going to arrive, it's just a matter of time. This is just the role in my mind that Soviet T3 plays.

Does the P4 beat a Sherman?

Yes pretty much in any practical situation.

I disagree 100%

I disagree 100%

And why is that? Better armor, better penetration, better reload time... Everything in favour of Pz IV.

I disagree 100%

Only Sherman has over the Mark IV is better anti infantry performance with HE shells and even then the latter is more than capable without having to manually switch shells.(still dont understand why this mechanic exist for only the Sherman but I digress)

And why is that? Better armor, better penetration, better reload time... Everything in favour of Pz IV.

Advantages so statistically marginal it may as well be a rounding error. PiV misses the first shot, you win. PiV gets a rear armour hit first, they win. etc. etc. In the grander context Shermans can be replaced, and aren't as big a loss as often as your only PiV will be; again due to the numbers already cited in the thread. There's a lot more implied equity at stake with the PiV, way too much to be psyched about going into a coinflip of a tank duel.

Stuff

Yes, bad luck. Frontally it should not be able to deal with an IS2, but 50% chance to penetrate the rear armor at close range is fine for a T3 medium armor. Although I have to point out that PzIV is fine, but if you want to argue about IS2 and it's performance, that's another thing. The over performance of the call-in meta is obvious.

Stuff

Things got a little mixed up here. Are we debating Ostheer's T3 viability, PzIV or Soviet Call-ins?

Allow me to start with this:
What if you could not finish the game early with the T70 rush (which with a good micro, you can as you said)? If the Axis player is only half decent, chances are you will probably lose the game because your T3 tier is lackluster, and it's gonna take a lot of time to wait for call-ins.

About T34/76, I don't want it to actually counter a panther outright. I just want it to become more powerful with vet, in a way which doesn't make them totally helpless versus a Panther. This is very important when we are talking about "fixing the call-ins". People simply ask for call-in nerfs (by increasing CP and/or price) but that's not the only change we need. If you nerf call-ins, people are forced to use stock units (which opens more room for variety in the game), so you have to give them better options. So both nerfing the call-ins AND tweaking stock units and tiers is the answer.

So bottom line what I'm saying is I actually want to see your vision of T3 (which is them being a bridge between T1/2 and call-ins), but that needs two major changes:
-Fixing Ostheer's teching (Unless we fix this, any buff to Soviets mid and late game will utterly crush Ostheer)
-Buffing stock units of the Soviets
-Nerfing the call-ins.



PS:I also disagree with PzIVs always beating Shermans, specially with Shermans' super duper accuracy on the move.

After reading everything here, it doesn't actually sound like the underlying problem is really the teching cost (when factoring in all pre-paid upgrades like LMGs and Rifle Grenades), becuase then surely Ostheer teching would be balanced and up to speed with the other factions.

I think the issue is actually the Ostheer early game map control that sets the teching back, not so much the price itself, but due to the weak early game this price is a lot more important that for USF and Soviets as your map control can't keep up with the costs (if you see where I'm going).

Not ever because the soviets start with more fuel.

so what?

Advantages so statistically marginal it may as well be a rounding error. PiV misses the first shot, you win. PiV gets a rear armour hit first, they win. etc. etc. In the grander context Shermans can be replaced, and aren't as big a loss as often as your only PiV will be; again due to the numbers already cited in the thread. There's a lot more implied equity at stake with the PiV, way too much to be psyched about going into a coinflip of a tank duel.

Factor in the tank crew repair for the US and it's far less riskier for the US. Repair time is about the same for 1 tank, halved when there are 2 tanks. Tanks can get back into the action fast - that's where a key difference lies.

I think the issue is actually the Ostheer early game map control that sets the teching back, not so much the price itself, but due to the weak early game this price is a lot more important that for USF and Soviets as your map control can't keep up with the costs (if you see where I'm going).

Implied vs. actual income is big when strategy relies on timing. It's also core faction design. The Wehr are a very defensive faction who lack shock units in the early, even mid game, and rely on maps to creep forward and methodically attack. You lose your cut off, you can basically forget about armour.

You skipped captain and bar unlock,so USA - 1105mp and 345 fuel.

Ostheer don't need to pay additional fuel and mp for RG and lmg, huh?

Things got a little mixed up here. Are we debating Ostheer's T3 viability, PzIV or Soviet Call-ins?

All three are intertwined.

I didn't suggest that you did want the 76 to counter larger armor. I'm sorry if my post was construed that way, I was using the Panther and anything larger to demonstrate the flow of the game, and the grander context, in which T3 for the Soviets is a bridge, and the role of those units is mid game shock, presumably originally to counter the wehrmacht early game shock of a flameht. if you wanted them to compete and scale better, they would have to cost more, and put them in line with timings similar to that of T4 +. i think you're asking T3 to do too much.

-Fixing Ostheer's teching (Unless we fix this, any buff to Soviets mid and late game will utterly crush Ostheer)

just give us a unit that we can use to actually attack/dislodge scripts/rifles from cover, give us the chance with skill to normalize our income in the dire situation where we lose ground, which will happen, it's really unforgiving as the wehrmacht. this would in my mind, revert the flow of the game, and balance out the disparities in aggressive/defensive playstyles for the factions.

Tier 3 Soviets should be cheaper

sure was a long post for some math. thanks for the tip.

Yes, but that is what makes it a Balance post, bcs the OP has put thought into it and tried to establish an argument, based on figures.

It may be, of course, that the argument is flawed, but that is not for me to judge.