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Yes, but that is what makes it a Balance post, bcs the OP has put thought into it and tried to establish an argument, based on figures.
It may be, of course, that the argument is flawed, but that is not for me to judge.
14 
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I was just frustrated at the time because these are discussions that people have been having, i'm sure at least during the private WFA alpha, and the OP presented a busted, one legged argument as though he'd uncovered the lost ark.
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More Stuff
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I sympathise
If the stuff is obviously wrong,, or ill-thought out, or attention-seeking, I move it elsewhere.
EDIT: I should have added there are two posters here, with roughly the same names...
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About Whermact, I 100% agree with you. You can't over-extend, you lose map control, and a single wipe might cost you the whole game. There is no room for error, Ostheer needs better early game map control options.
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Which is why I said that the problem is not in the actual teching cost but how the faction fares in the early game. Too many mistakes accumulated can see the game spiral out of control and then the Panzer IV, if it comes, will come too late.
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Advantages so statistically marginal it may as well be a rounding error. PiV misses the first shot, you win. PiV gets a rear armour hit first, they win. etc. etc. In the grander context Shermans can be replaced, and aren't as big a loss as often as your only PiV will be; again due to the numbers already cited in the thread. There's a lot more implied equity at stake with the PiV, way too much to be psyched about going into a coinflip of a tank duel.
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Replace the word PzIV by T34 or Sherman and you're going to the same argumentation with a worst result.
PzIV is the best of the 3 tanks and it has the best veterancy. it also has the best survivability vs other T4 tank destroyers, SU85 and M36.
A sherman alone or a T34 alone cannot do anything vs a panther.
Now it doesn't outclass completely his fellow but it arrives at the right time to support your pak vs the sherman and the T34 + shreck and faust.
8 Posts: 2470
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I'm with you on Teching, but how does PzIV beats Sherman in AI?
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Posts: 1116 | Subs: 1
Permanently BannedFuel.
It's called fuel.
But yes, this sounds like a fair enough argument.
The thing is with Soviet and US upgrades like Field Hospital, Ambulance, AT nades, standard grenades, BAR, Molotov, is these mentioned things are always a must before going for armor.
As Ostheer doesn't need to pay MP for their upgrades or snare abilities. So 9/10 times the gap in between armor costs is minimized more so than your original numbers.
axis
Posts: 2280 | Subs: 2
Permanently Banned
LOl yet ostheer is the most manpower starved faction in the game. USF and soviets pay the least in teching so their upgrade costs aren't even a big deal, especially soviets, usf get free squads and have no need to build structures. That why you never see ostheer having vehicles or tanks before allies unless you suck.
There is no recording in all WW2 history of a piat actually knocking off a vehicle. Yes, it was THAT bad.
Posts: 1116 | Subs: 1
Permanently Banned
OKW has cheapest tech...
p4 comes around the same time as the first Sherman or t34
axis
Posts: 301
Dear Relic,
In just performing a light analysis ...
This analysis at the /b/ level.
Ostheer:
1 - Infanerie Kompanie
2 - Battle Phase 1
3 - Battle Phase 2 -
3 - Support Amor K
4 - Panzer IV Medium Tank
5 - Totals - Man Power - 1000 Gas - 260
Note: If you include needing pak guns then you need to also add the
Leichte Mech. Kompanie
Man Power - 120 Gas - 15
You forget to add medical bunker or you want to play without heal?
So, total would be Man Power - 1120 Gas - 275
1270 mp 275 fuel
Soviets:
1 - Special Rifle Command or Support Weapon Kampaneya
2 - Tankkoviy Battalion Command
3 - T34 Medium tank
4 - Totals Man Power - 710 Gas - 270
Same here + 250 mp for medics and 250 mp and 50 fuel for nades-molotovs. Do you mention what Ost get all nades for free? Nope. And soviets always bleed mp couse of they crappy unfantry units and Ost have lot of tools to make them bleed even more(upgraded MG42, turbo mortar, Rnade). Try to count cost of reinforce 5 of 6 scripts and 3 of 4 grens, just for lulz. Did you try to wipe with Rnade? Did you try to wipe with Molotov?And if add only medics and 1 type of Nade(many players don't go for Molotovs, couse it suck hard)?
1085 mp 295 fuel or 1210 mp 320 fuel(both nades).
USA:
1 - Active Platoon Command Post
2 - Active Battalion Command Post
3 - M4A3 Sherman
4 - Totals
Medics 250-10, nades 150-25,
1180 mp and 285 fuel.
In addition, this is strictly a build to get a PIV medium tank, and does not include upgrades or builds for ANYTHING else.
I lol'ed. Are you playing against easy AI? You can't take strickly build without ignoring cost of grades, couse YOU need them to get your army works. Still you adding LMC for Paks, but don't include same for others >>
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LOl yet ostheer is the most manpower starved faction in the game. USF and soviets pay the least in teching so their upgrade costs aren't even a big deal, especially soviets, usf get free squads and have no need to build structures. That why you never see ostheer having vehicles or tanks before allies unless you suck.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
Posts: 611
Tier 3 Soviets should be cheaper
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