Ostheer's Panzer IV vs Sherman/T34 Costs

Dear Relic,


In just performing a light analysis of the PanzerIV base man power/gas vs Sherman/T34 man power/gas, I have a better understanding why the PanzerIVs come out later on the field than a Sherman or T34 which seems very odd to me. (where PanzerIV one of the main tanks in early WW2 fighting T34s?) I thought PanzerIVs are atleast to be on the field around the same time as sherman or T34? but the costs of man power, seems a factor for late PIVs. From my understanding of how players have been using the PanzerIV is when they have good map control, but seems odd that having good map control is only way to have good timing for a PanzerIV. Just thinking of the flip side, the allies could have few tanks out, due to lower manpower costs. Why not have the Ostheer teching cost come down a bit to meet a balance timing for the PanzerIV tank? specifically for a competitive match of mediums tanks? Basically, I never use a PanzerIV cause it comes out way to late, just save for a tiger... so why even have a PanzerIV as an option when its practically obsolete by the time it gets on the field compared to Shermans and T34s?

Ostheer:

1 - Infanerie Kompanie
Man Power - 90 Gas - 10

2 - Battle Phase 1
Man Power - 200 Gas - 45

3 - Battle Phase 2 -
Man Power - 200 Gas - 55

3 - Support Amor K
Man Power - 160 Gas - 25

4 - Panzer IV Medium Tank
Man Power - 350 Gas - 125

5 - Totals - Man Power - 1000 Gas - 260

Note: If you include needing pak guns then you need to also add the
Leichte Mech. Kompanie
Man Power - 120 Gas - 15

So, total would be Man Power - 1120 Gas - 275


Soviets:

1 - Special Rifle Command or Support Weapon Kampaneya
man Power 160 Gas - 50

2 - Tankkoviy Battalion Command
Man Power - 240 Gas - 120

3 - T34 Medium tank
Man Power - 310 Gas - 100

4 - Totals Man Power - 710 Gas - 270

USA:
1 - Active Platoon Command Post
Man Power - 200 Gas -50

2 - Active Battalion Command Post
Man Power - 240 Gas -90

3 - M4A3 Sherman
Man Power -340 Gas -110

4 - Totals
Man Power -780 Gas - 250

Summary,

One of the items that stick out, is man power is a problem, cost around 200-300 more that the allies tanks.

PanzerIV
Man Power - 1000 Gas - 260

Soviets
Totals Man Power - 710 Gas - 270

USA
Man Power -780 Gas - 250


I appreciate your time and help.

Thank You,
ICE

In addition, this is strictly a build to get a PIV medium tank, and does not include upgrades or builds for ANYTHING else.

Ostheers teching is overpriced by quite a bit.
But the P4 needs to cost more as it beats both T-34 and Sherman in AT and arguably AI.

I cant read, apparently.

But yes, the manpower cost is a big problem as Ost is missing an entire squad worth of manpower, and USF gets a Lieutenant and Major in return for teching.

Ost teching for sure needs to cost less manpower. Or USF pays for Lieutenant to balance it a little.

- I forgot that Soviets do need to research molotovs/at grenades, but Soviet teching is pretty crap anyways, and call-in meta's existence makes it not worth talking about. Also, conscripts have very low upkeep compared to most things. Extra manpower spending doesn't hamper units too much when using conscripts, but that may also be from the lack of teching often done...

The main weakness in the ost's tech is that it doesn't let the player skip. They are essentially forced to buy the rifle grenade and lmg42 research with their tiers.

the above cost doesn't calculate the cost for the sov support weapon building or the sov getting the molly or the at nade. Most sov player would either get at least the molly or the at nade before progressing to the t34, unless there's a horrible mismatch. t34 is also a bit weaker than the p4

the reality of the US-ost match up do mean that the us can often get away without bar, nades, or bazooka. instead of lowering the ost tech cost, we need to weaken the rifleman and m20 enough so that the USF feel compel to researches nades, bars, and/or bazooka. This way the USF risk losing the early game by attempting to rush sherman.

the reality of the US-ost match up do mean that the us can often get away without bar, nades, or bazooka. instead of lowering the ost tech cost, we need to weaken the rifleman and m20 enough so that the USF feel compel to researches nades, bars, and/or bazooka. This way the USF risk losing the early game by attempting to rush sherman.

Nearly all the time USF gets grenades, though. However, i dont see the BAR as often as it should be seen given that there is nothing wrong with it, but i feel like USF and its requirement for all infantry to run back to the base and navigate THIER TERRIBLE ROUND BASE WITH TERRIBLY PLACED RACKS AND A PATHING NIGHTMARE have a lot to do with it. Reducing any AI capabilities wont improve the use of Bazookas, which arent used for the same reason as BAR's, and IMO, are a bit overpriced.

I was never a fan of USF's "Riflemen do everything and are the only infantry" design... It makes it hard to get a strong reason to change riflemen - who also have a very buggy AT rifle grenade that has a minimum range for reasons.

sure was a long post for some math. thanks for the tip.

he doesn't include the cost of t2 either, which i consider important, if not strictly necessary for the comparison. basically there's the minimum (what he calculated) and the most common (soviets buying upgrades if con spam and possibly light vehicles, usf light vehicles and upgrades, and OKH t2 and light vehicles. the later can really only be determined with statistics but would be very important and interesting.

he doesn't include the cost of t2 either, which i consider important, if not strictly necessary for the comparison. basically there's the minimum (what he calculated) and the most common (soviets buying upgrades if con spam and possibly light vehicles, usf light vehicles and upgrades, and OKH t2 and light vehicles. the later can really only be determined with statistics but would be very important and interesting.

I rarely see the t34 76 nowadays. Most people opt for the doctrinal tanks which is a different set of problem.

the USF usually get their tanks early because of their early dominance. Most people can get away without researching the bars, bazooka, or 57mm and cruise straight for the major.

However, to bring the question around, would the USF feel comfortable facing pziv with stuarts, 57mm, and bazooka?

I rarely see the t34 76 nowadays. Most people opt for the doctrinal tanks which is a different set of problem.

the USF usually get their tanks early because of their early dominance. Most people can get away without researching the bars, bazooka, or 57mm and cruise straight for the major.

However, to bring the question around, would the USF feel comfortable facing pziv with stuarts, 57mm, and bazooka?

Call in meta is extremely good, but not gonna lie, the t34 is not worth 100 fuel. Its more of a 90 fuel tank. USF should feel comfortable vs a panzer4 with that stuff IMO

I rarely see the t34 76 nowadays. Most people opt for the doctrinal tanks which is a different set of problem.

the USF usually get their tanks early because of their early dominance. Most people can get away without researching the bars, bazooka, or 57mm and cruise straight for the major.

However, to bring the question around, would the USF feel comfortable facing pziv with stuarts, 57mm, and bazooka?

Bazookas need a bit of a buff, but even in there current state can still threaten a mark IV. Stuart is crap all around a needs a big buff, 57mm handles them just like any other AT gun.

Maybe if relic didn't decide to pair up the very best model of PZIV against a Russian tank outdated by three years and one of the earliest makes of Sherman, it'd arrive earlier (/kappa etc)

Can't be having anyone but axis have their best, least common tanks as stock, right?

Ostheers teching is overpriced by quite a bit.
But the P4 needs to cost more as it beats both T-34 and Sherman in AT and arguably AI.

I'm with you on Teching, but how does PzIV beats Sherman in AI?

Ostheer teching includes MG42, Sniper, Mortar and Pak + panzergrenadiers.
Additionally: LMG42, Flamthrower, mines AT & AI and shrecks + faust.

I'm not saying that its better or worst than Sov or USF, just saying you're not only paying for a PZ4. And a I have only expose stuff that doesn't need fuel to be built.

Now, at the end, the Pz4 is better than T34 and Sherman, it has a unique type of shell that deal AT and AI + good vet abilities. and since the last patch it gained survivability vs M36.
I don't know what do you want more.

Call in meta is extremely good, but not gonna lie, the t34 is not worth 100 fuel. Its more of a 90 fuel tank. USF should feel comfortable vs a panzer4 with that stuff IMO

I do missed the t34 76 when it was bugged with a faster reload. They should really just roll the buff into the t34 76 and do any necessary price adjustment.

Maybe if relic didn't decide to pair up the very best model of PZIV against a Russian tank outdated by three years and one of the earliest makes of Sherman, it'd arrive earlier (/kappa etc)

Can't be having anyone but axis have their best, least common tanks as stock, right?

the 75mm sherman + jackson arrangement actually work pretty well for the USF currently. Infantry doctrine is probably the most popular doctrine now since the USF isn't as desperate for late game tank killing power.

theoretically the t34 76 + su-85 should work equally as well, but the t34-76's lack luster reload speed significantly hurt its killing power against infantry or armor.

It's not a T34/76 thread but I just wanna point out one thing.
T34/76 is very viable when arrives, specially if you rush for one. It fast, kinda cheap (although 90 or something would be better) and a well microed well supported T34/76 can finish the game quickly, if you avoid PAKs and snares.

But the problem is something else. It scales terribly and after 6-7 minutes, when heavier axis units arrive (most notably tigers and Panthers) they become absolute trash, specially if you enemy is not brain dead and supports their tanks well.

Axis units already have superior armor and HP, but some of them (PzIV, Panther, JGPzIV for instance) gain more survivability when they gain vet, along with increased firepower (mostly RoF, turret rotation and accuracy). So they are both superior and they become more viable as the game goes.

If they add something like this to T34/76, people would buy more T34s and the whole T3 would be much more viable and cost efficient.

Suggestions:
-Increased armor at vet 3
or
-Increased penetration at vet 3 (IIRC, t34/76 has 120/100/80 pen and 85 has 160/140/120. Buffing T34/76 to something like 150/130/110 at vet 3 might be a good idea.)

Holy cow

So Soviets tier 3 should be cheaper! Thx man!

[The 34/76]... scales terribly and after 6-7 minutes, when heavier axis units arrive (most notably tigers and Panthers) they become absolute trash, specially if you enemy is not brain dead and supports their tanks well.

In much the same way wehrmacht T3 and OKW puma's aren't all that great against heavy allied armour. We've all seen the PiV v. IS2 film. People go Panther or >, in order to counter allied medium armor.

In much the same way wehrmacht T3 and OKW puma's aren't all that great against heavy allied armour. We've all seen the PiV v. IS2 film. People go Panther or >, in order to counter allied medium armor.

Well, I have to disagree with you on this one. Ostheer's T3 is a lot more viable than Soviets T3, and I think we do agree that Ostheer's T3 doesn't have any problem versus USF (at least on paper). Against Soviets, things are different yes, but still a vet 3 P4 is A LOT MORE intimidating than a vet 3 T34. I know, they should be because P4s are more expensive but the difference is greater than the actual fuel cost if you ask me. OKW's puma is ok IMO, specially with the 5 vet system, and the utility it has. But you don't expect the puma to counter an IS2 do you?

PS: That video does not prove anything. That was just pure bad luck. I'm up for some RNG adjustments but come on, that doesn't prove that P4s are 100% useless versus IS2. All that being said, the call in meta should be fixed. starting with some adjustments to stock units.

Nothing wrong with either the p4 or t-34. The problem is that their are no decent TD's in either tier 3 that can deal with the callin heavies. and the p4 has no chance in hell against the 85/e8/soviet sherman.

The reason you see sherman a lot more often is because of the jackson.

So anyone knows when relic gonna decrease the cost of Soviets Tier 3?