And do You enjoy war game without RNG involved? I don't.
Example of T70 wiping squads is bad one cause it's not because of AoE or RNG, it's because of insane clumping of the infantry where models stand almost on each other. Fix this, or make spread-out button and you will see 70% less wipes.
I truly hate when KT hits the field when Im playing USF cause it's wiping machine agasint Rifles but again, most of the time it's caused by clumping.
And I don't agree that Axis squads are easier to wipe cause they are 4-men. 6man maxim, Cons or Guards die as well to one rifle nade because of, again, clumping. Of course, they have slighy higer chances to survive cause of 2 extra men but it's not gamechanging.
It's long time since Soviet mines wiped my squad, but inflicting non-lethal damage is pure pudding. Mines are killing people. Decreasing health only is stupid as taking 152mm shell on the chest and surviving it.
It's war, bullets are flying everywhere, infantry is dying.
Yes, Im pissed when almost dead IS2 is getting away cause of 3 bounces in a row. I may even lose a game because of this. But on the other hand there are plenty games when RNG is in my favour and let me win. One of the components of epic battles is RNG, not math. Math may create more stable and predictable game but it's also killing fun and makes every engagements quite similar.
Like true war. You can read about Tigers destroyed by few shells, but you can as well find informatiosn about Tigers which survived over 100 shells and we have this in CoH2. Dying Tiger after every 10-15 shots would kill any fun.
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I pointed scatter and AoE cause most of the time there are whines about IS2 or ISU by Axis players while axis units are no worse, in fact they are better.
Well said, but how do you rationalize the cost of heavier "super vehicles" and more importantly, how do you set them apart from things that typically do the same thing but on a smaller level, i.e. how do you differentiate how much relative dmg a T3485 should do to a single squad vs how much relative dmg an IS-2 should do to the same squad? Or, in the case of Axis, differentiate between a Panzer IV, a Tiger, Tiger Ace, and King Tiger? If we took squad wiping out of the game, there would be no point in going for heavier units like the KT that you can usually count on to wipe a whole squad.
I think there are a lot of design choices in this game that need to be re-thought before we can start solving problems like 1-shotted squads.
Hey, I agree with you to some extent.
Yes, we need to set the late-game units apart, they certainly need to be superior to early-game units. I think long range, heavy armour, high HP, etc are enough without also having to delete squads regularly.
Units like KT and IS2/ISU are strong enough in that they are both AP and AT, they don't have to also be AS (Anti-squad)
So units that can take punishment, require hard counters to be fielded and hit hard from range woud be good enough without the ability to regularly wipe squads.
Axis wipe options seem to be more expensive, but there is a fair share of ones that are cheaper(booby traps for example), getting Stuka which wipes something with almost every barrage is also cheaper then getting Katy. Axis options of squad wiping are more expensive, but they are also much more lethal.
Most axis players scream imbalance when allied tank or shell one shots a squad and they scream that nothing should one shot squad and then we have unit like sturmtiger which erases anything it hits below 140 fuel cost.
The stuka isn't much less expensive than the Katyusha if you count teching, and it don't count it it's almost twice the cost!
And lol I'm one of the only people that use the Sturmtiger and I can assure you that most people never use it because the micro investment to use it a fuckbillion times bigger than using 120's, Easy Eights, or T34/85's.
The complaint is that cheap shit can wipe squads super well, not that super expensive stuff like the Sturmtiger is capable of doing it.
If call in's were tied to teching it would be fine.
^this
By god yes, and I've said this before! If they added a building requirement for these units the call in meta problem would be significantly fixed in my opinion.
I'm sorry but I have to disagree 100% with this. RTS games are designed at their core to be a battle of wits and skill between two players on a grand battle scheme. Games like StarCraft take this to the extreme, where randomness is reduced to near 0 in order to maximize the "skill vs skill" component, whereby you are only punished for making mistakes, rather from RNG.
RNG and squad wiping doens't produce a good war-game. It simply punishes you for no reason. Squads should be wiped for the sole reason you had squad wipes in CoH1: you weren't paying attention, and so you suffer the consequences. Losing squads randomly (like that game of Hans vs Paul on Angoville where Paul lost 4 man Falls to single T70 shots) merely punishes one player for no reason.
@Sneakking, you cannot justify the use of late game tanks is to squad wipe. Their use comes from their ability to soak damage while dealing heavy damage to vehicles, and to consistently inflict manpower drain on the opponent.
In CoH1 mines would protect flanks by pinning squads and inflicting huge amounts of non-lethal damage, which if left unnoticed by the played who hit the mine resulted in squad wiping due to merely not retreating a low health squad. Again in CoH2 I've been punished terribly for no reason when a 4 man Ober squad gets squad wiped by walking over a soviet mine. In before the "noob get a minesweeper squad!" - As OKW you need the sturmpios to minesweeper... and a squad with such high combat utility and cost shouldn't be mine sweeping the entire map so your shitty volks can go around capping or flanking. This is another thing I don't understand. Who designed OKW and thought "lets make their pioneers super expensive and strong, and also make it so OKW needs schreks, that way they won't have munitions or the opportunity to upgrade minesweepers for a while. That way they need to blob and stay together to avoid unnecessary squad wipes".
Several very good points.
Changing these things could really increase the enjoyability of CoH2.
(A) It's not Star Craft. Pure math war-game would be boring as hell. Squad wipes are needed.
Im playing RTSes for ages. Not big-ones like StarCraft or WarCraft, cause they are boring with their predictability. Cossacks 1? Amazing, most of the time mirror design RTS game with unit like multibarrel cannon, regular cannon or howitzers able to kill 10-30 models per shot, apart from regular fight between soldiers.
Warlord Battlecry? Great RTS, 16 factions, still balanced with abilities to wipe entire army in a seconds.
Battle for middle-earth? Ents, nazguls' beasts smashing whole squads.
Wiping squads is part of the game, very good one. It's just Ostheer and USF suffer more from this than Soviets and OKW )which float MP so much that in place of wiped squad can put 2 squads). (A)
(B) As for wiping potential, OKW and Ostheer have better options.
Of course, there are units like ISU and KV2 but they are sluggish and they have reload over 10secs. There is doctrinal Bulldozer, which is worst that Brummbar. HE Sherman which is slighty better than Stug E but it also has bigger scatter and finally IS2 which has AoE only 0,5 bigger than Tigers while being very inaccurate.
On the other hand Axis have flaks, which are amazing and killing groups of infantry per burst. Brummbar, Tiger, Tiger Ace, King Tiger (which is wiping machine) or Sturmtiger.
Allies have only better mortar in terms of wiping potential. But if we look at vehicles, Axis are slighty in front. (B)
(A) Why do you try to project relations conerning squad wipes from totally different types of RTS onto CoH2? CoH2 is more tactical and about preserving squads and preventing to lose them to super units/abilities being granted the chance to react in order to safe them.
I can neither tell from my experience nor from replays that OKW/Soviets do necessarily float more MP than USF/Ostheer. It is dependent on many factors like winning engagements, map design and RNG. If you win engagements as USF in the greater time of the game without losing too many models and use heal you clearly float MP. If you lose many models as OKW or even squads due to bad play you will not float MP or you will be temporarily at disatvantage if you do not replace squads. There are campy situations in maps like Langreskaya where you do not fight much. Consequently, MP float on both sides can evolve. What I am trying to explain is that MP float is not necessarily dependent on faction to 100%.
(B) The Axis tanks with squad wipe potential you list are either doctrinal (Tiger and Tiger Ace) or come very late (King Tiger) or can be easily dogded/engaged by skilled players (Brummbär and Sturmtiger). Sturmtiger can maybe wipe some squads because it would come surprisingly as nobody would expect it due to not being a viable option but apart from that first surprising strike skilled players will prevent further damage coming from Sturmtiger. Sturmtiger as well as Brummbär bring you in the situation where you will not have enough fuel to produce or call in tanks which can handle late game vehicles from Soviets or numerous vehicles from USF.
Ostwind is quite powerful if used correctly but counter reaction come swiftly. Soviets whilst waiting for call ins could have problems to deal with it. But even then you are exposed to IS2/T34/85s without proper PaK40 management.
Why do you think Axis has more squad wipe potential than Allies? I disagree with you in both numbers and efficiency.
You completely forgot demo charges, Katyusha, Scotts and B4 (which can be easily countered by Luftwaffe though). Not to mention that squad wipes like these from Tigers can also happen whilst using T34/85s. Mortars and Katyushas can use precision strikes which cost munition but are efficient enough mostly resulting in instant squad wipes. ISU-152 takes time to reload but is still able to wipe squads regularly. KV8 can definitely wipe squads when you catch them without AT support covering them.
Furthermore I do not understand why you compare HE Sherman with doctrinal Stug E.
And doctrinal Bulldozer is not worse than Brummbär. Bulldozer comes earlier, at a lower cost and wipes infantry more reliably.
(A) Why do you try to project relations conerning squad wipes from totally different types of RTS onto CoH2? CoH2 is more tactical and about preserving squads and preventing to lose them to super units/abilities being granted the chance to react in order to safe them.
I can neither tell from my experience nor from replays that OKW/Soviets do necessarily float more MP than USF/Ostheer. It is dependent on many factors like winning engagements, map design and RNG. If you win engagements as USF in the greater time of the game without losing too many models and use heal you clearly float MP. If you lose many models as OKW or even squads due to bad play you will not float MP or you will be temporarily at disatvantage if you do not replace squads. There are campy situations in maps like Langreskaya where you do not fight much. Consequently, MP float on both sides can evolve. What I am trying to explain is that MP float is not necessarily dependent on faction to 100%.
(B) The Axis tanks with squad wipe potential you list are either doctrinal (Tiger and Tiger Ace) or come very late (King Tiger) or can be easily dogded/engaged by skilled players (Brummbär and Sturmtiger). Sturmtiger can maybe wipe some squads because it would come surprisingly as nobody would expect it due to not being a viable option but apart from that first surprising strike skilled players will prevent further damage coming from Sturmtiger. Sturmtiger as well as Brummbär bring you in the situation where you will not have enough fuel to produce or call in tanks which can handle late game vehicles from Soviets or numerous vehicles from USF.
Ostwind is quite powerful if used correctly but counter reaction come swiftly. Soviets whilst waiting for call ins could have problems to deal with it. But even then you are exposed to IS2/T34/85s without proper PaK40 management.
Why do you think Axis has more squad wipe potential than Allies? I disagree with you in both numbers and efficiency.
You completely forgot demo charges, Katyusha, Scotts and B4 (which can be easily countered by Luftwaffe though). Not to mention that squad wipes like these from Tigers can also happen whilst using T34/85s. Mortars and Katyushas can use precision strikes which cost munition but are efficient enough mostly resulting in instant squad wipes. ISU-152 takes time to reload but is still able to wipe squads regularly. KV8 can definitely wipe squads when you catch them without AT support covering them.
Furthermore I do not understand why you compare HE Sherman with doctrinal Stug E.
And doctrinal Bulldozer is not worse than Brummbär. Bulldozer comes earlier, at a lower cost and wipes infantry more reliably.
I'm comparing pure math game vs game with RNG involved. It's just my personal feeling that pure math games are boring. It's the matter of taste and nothing to argue here.
Whenever Im tired after 12-14h on feet, I play 4v4. As USF, late-game is always hard in terms of man power. It's because of many things. Rifles dying like flies in late game and me being tired. Yet when I pick up OKW, I can blob like hell Volks with Fusiliers, forget about any tactical movement, expose mysefl to losses, yet I still have MP to reinfore.
They are doctrinal, just like Soviets counterparts but about King Tiger I don't agree. In 1v1 it's very late unit. In 2v2 it's late unit but in 3v3 or 4v4 it's damn early unit. 14-18min (depends upon map control and doctrines). Sometimes your first T34/76 hits the field in same time when King Tiger.
I'm comparing units, so demo charge has no place here. Katy is very powerful at wiping squads but same thing could be said about Stuka or even PzWerfer under right circumstances.
Scott has no counterpart so I skipped it. And B4 is powerful, but right now almost no one uses it - at least I faced only one player with this doctrine since patch.
All vehicles can wipe, but numbers are agasint T34/85 when comparing to Tiger.
As for mortars I said eariler that they are a way better in terms of wiping than Axis ones so I don't know why you brought it up.
Bulldozer is cheaper but it does not come eariler (only in 1v1). In 2v2 and above OST player can get Panther or Brummbar around 15-17min with good map control. I belive sometimes it's faster than 9CPs. What's more, Brummbar has bigger AoE and less scatter, can fight vehicles cause of better penetration, has more health points and better armor. No wonder why Bulldozer is cheaper.
I compared HE Sherman and Stuge E cause they are used mainly for the same purpose.
I phrased it badly, sorry. It's not just that he's been playing RTS for a long time, it's that he's been playing them at a high level for a long time. and very much thinking it through.
Whose opinion would you trust if you suddenly had breathing difficulties: Your own, because you've been breathing very well for a long time, or a pulmonolgist (respiratory tract doctor) who is the same age as you?
I'm sure you'd choose the specialist. Same concept is advisable on CoH2.org. There are players who understand this game and similar games very well and can offer excellent insight. If I ever see one of these players disagree with me I quickly reassess my idea.
I think the forum would provide more useful posts if other posters would do the same instead of insisting on their own opinion.
That being said, RNG and squad wiping doens't produce a good war-game. It simply punishes you for no reason. Squads should be wiped for the sole reason you had squad wipes in CoH1: you weren't paying attention, and so you suffer the consequences. Losing squads randomly (like that game of Hans vs Paul on Angoville where Paul lost 4 man Falls to single T70 shots) merely punishes one player for no reason. Sure this allows for come backs and lead consolidation, but when you know you are outplaying someone it is frustrating to have luck come in. Even games like Chess and Checkers have it figured out that RNG is bad and games should focus on strategic skill and positioning.
CoH1 still had substantial RNG, squad wipes are a related but distinct factor. The existence of RNG in a game is not always negative, and like a good commander in real life, you cannot always plan for every contingency. Calculated risk taking is present in some wide-spread competitive games like Texas Hold'Em Poker. That is an extreme example, CoH2 is much less random than that, but risk taking can have a role in competitive games. Many shooters have "some" degree of randomness in the form of bullet spread, as another random example. Many games have concepts like "critical hits". There is room for games with no randomness, and there is room for games with low, medium or high degrees of randomness.
I agree that squadwipes are in a bad spot right now, but that's about the extent of it. I also want changes done to death crits, as outlined in other threads.
Aren't the allied factions supposed to have a weak late game in order to compensate for their absurd early game advantage (6 men units, inf with sickening DPS etc..) ? These anti everything units nearly cost as much as a PIV(Not considering the teching) but they can counter anything from Panther and Tiger I to Rak43s and PAKs.
They should be effective against one type of units, either vehicles or inf. At their current cost and performance, they are too cheap.
If you're losing because of simple momentum, your cats weren't going to save you anyways.
And "counter" isn't the right term for a unit that constitutes a valid competitor. The only real issue with the E8 / T-34-85 call ins is when you get them in pairs, but that's a minor issue.
Anyone who watched the Paul vs Mollo match on Ango earlier today would agree that T34/85 no tech bullshit is broken. It truly is stupid in the extreme. No thought required. But maybe that is the audience Relic is trying to appeal to.....
I wouldn want a rng free coh2 either. I think its the rng that makes this game feel more dynamic and alive, it adds more soul to it. A rts game purely based on strict math doesnt sound fun to me.
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