Double T34/85s and PrettyEasy Eight

Well, neither did most call-ins in CoH2 aside from a few ridiculous examples (ISU-152, please stop this, it's just silly) until about six months ago

I MISS THAT SO FUCKING MUCH

The tanks I have seen 1 shot squads in CoH2 recently: Tiger Ace, King Tiger, Sherman 105, Sherman with HE, T34/85, ISU-152, IS2

Tanks I have seen 1 shot squads in CoH1 recently: None

I also remember playing a game as OKW recently against a Soviet, his T34/85s drove out of FOW, both shot at a 6 man, vet 4 Panzerfusilier, and it died instantly... this type of non-sense bothers me so much. To avoid getting wiped I would literally have to retreat instantly. Why am I being punished for no reason? Losing a vet4 6 man squad in 1 second is not skill or a mistake on my part. It's just stupid and punishes players for no apparent reason

Aren't the allied factions supposed to have a weak late game in order to compensate for their absurd early game advantage (6 men units, inf with sickening DPS etc..) ? These anti everything units nearly cost as much as a PIV(Not considering the teching) but they can counter anything from Panther and Tiger I to Rak43s and PAKs.

Isn't the point to discard the 'good early game/late game and bad late game/early game' bullshit? All factions should be equally effective at any point in the game, and in 1v1s they kind of are.

The tanks I have seen 1 shot squads in CoH2 recently: Tiger Ace, King Tiger, Sherman 105, Sherman with HE, T34/85, ISU-152, IS2

Tanks I have seen 1 shot squads in CoH1 recently: None

I also remember playing a game as OKW recently against a Soviet, his T34/85s drove out of FOW, both shot at a 6 man, vet 4 Panzerfusilier, and it died instantly... this type of non-sense bothers me so much. To avoid getting wiped I would literally have to retreat instantly. Why am I being punished for no reason? Losing a vet4 6 man squad in 1 second is not skill or a mistake on my part. It's just stupid and punishes players for no apparent reason

Well, they didn't about six months ago (Except KT and ISU, they still could).

Now if they don't it's practically a miracle. AND I FUCKING HATE IT NOW

Stock units would be more expensive, and less used. I don't think you understand how much fuel investment there is for OKW or Ostheer to acquire said tanks such as Panthers and KT's.

It's better for Allies for the 85's, Ez8's and IS2's to be call in's, as it makes them cheaper.

A OKW Panther is worth as much as an IS2;

Unadjusted: 175 + 80 = 255

Adjusted: (175/.66)+(80/.66)= 386.

If you are gonna keep with this stupid adjustment of prices, at least do it with the right numbers.

OKW base income is equal to any other faction. So a 50-50 map control on a 10 strategic, 2 fuel, 2 muni points gives OKW a 73.1% fuel and 83.3% munition.

If you are gonna keep with this stupid adjustment of prices, at least do it with the right numbers.

OKW base income is equal to any other faction. So a 50-50 map control on a 10 strategic, 2 fuel, 2 muni points gives OKW a 73.1% fuel and 83.3% munition.

OKW initial fuel income is lower than every other factions.

OKW initial fuel income is lower than every other factions.

50% control on a 10strategic, 2 fuel maps

OKW:
Base 4
Strategic point 2
Fuel point 5
4 + 10 + 5 = 19f

Any other faction:
Base 4
Strategic point 3
Fuel point 7
4 + 15 + 7 = 26f

50% control on a 10strategic, 2 fuel maps

OKW:
Base 4
Strategic point 2
Fuel point 5
4 + 10 + 5 = 19f

Any other faction:
Base 4
Strategic point 3
Fuel point 7
4 + 15 + 7 = 26f

Any other faction starts with 6 base fuel I thought? I was just playing Ostheer.

lol, every thread on the front page is about Nerf X allied unit/Buff X Axis unit

Never seen so much biased whining in my life

Relic should delete OP allied factions, so we would have only axis vs axis games.

Any other faction starts with 6 base fuel I thought? I was just playing Ostheer.

All factions start with 6 mun and 4 fu income.
It was never any different.

The tanks I have seen 1 shot squads in CoH2 recently: Tiger Ace, King Tiger, Sherman 105, Sherman with HE, T34/85, ISU-152, IS2

Tanks I have seen 1 shot squads in CoH1 recently: None

I also remember playing a game as OKW recently against a Soviet, his T34/85s drove out of FOW, both shot at a 6 man, vet 4 Panzerfusilier, and it died instantly... this type of non-sense bothers me so much. To avoid getting wiped I would literally have to retreat instantly. Why am I being punished for no reason? Losing a vet4 6 man squad in 1 second is not skill or a mistake on my part. It's just stupid and punishes players for no apparent reason

Wow, Nosliw's here.

Big +1

Losing full squads to one-shotters ruins the gameplay for any army. Ost and OKW suffer a bit more due to their smaller squads but really it happens to every army. A lot of issue would be much less severe if this was dealt with.

Wow, Nosliw's here.

Big +1

Losing full squads to one-shotters ruins the gameplay for any army. Ost and OKW suffer a bit more due to their smaller squads but really it happens to every army. A lot of issue would be much less severe if this was dealt with.

You can't really say that okw suffers more then USF here.

Both have 5 men basic inf, both have 4 men squads and weapon teams, USF have even 3 men squads.

And one shots have nothing to do with tanks, so stop mentioning them. Its about squad spread, it always was about it.

You can't really say that okw suffers more then USF here.

Both have 5 men basic inf, both have 4 men squads and weapon teams, USF have even 3 men squads.

And one shots have nothing to do with tanks, so stop mentioning them. Its about squad spread, it always was about it.

Yes, US and OKW are in the same boat in some respects. The US are facing less 1-shot units though (by less I don't mean the actual number available, I mean that actual number fielded - the Soviet and US one-shot units are cheaper than the axis ones and appear much more in games)

It is mostly about spread, I agree. It's also about AoE and how that's implemented though.


Did you read Nosliw's two posts? That guys been playing RTS for a long time, he's worth listening to and he made some great points.

Yes, US and OKW are in the same boat in some respects. The US are facing less 1-shot units though (by less I don't mean the actual number available, I mean that actual number fielded - the Soviet and US one-shot units are cheaper than the axis ones and appear much more in games)

Axis wipe options seem to be more expensive, but there is a fair share of ones that are cheaper(booby traps for example), getting Stuka which wipes something with almost every barrage is also cheaper then getting Katy. Axis options of squad wiping are more expensive, but they are also much more lethal.

Most axis players scream imbalance when allied tank or shell one shots a squad and they scream that nothing should one shot squad and then we have unit like sturmtiger which erases anything it hits below 140 fuel cost.

It is mostly about spread, I agree. It's also about AoE and how that's implemented though.


Did you read Nosliw's two posts? That guys been playing RTS for a long time, he's worth listening to and he made some great points.

I play RTS games since settlers 2/C&C times I got my fair share of experience with all different kinds of them.

He mentions CoH1. He didn't mention that infantry in general was much more powerful and durable there, pretty much only artillery was a reliable way of disposing them. CoH2 infantry lethality itself is much greater

AoE profiles were nerfed multiple times, you can nerf them to extremely low values and you'll still see squad wipes, because all entities stand in a single place. Ever wondered why pre WFA only squad wipes were caused by odd 120mm or ISU random hits and not by stuff like Ostwinds or rifle nades?

Hell, I've seen a pshreck one shot 5 models once, its certainly not because of its AoE.

Axis wipe options seem to be more expensive, but there is a fair share of ones that are cheaper(booby traps for example), getting Stuka which wipes something with almost every barrage is also cheaper then getting Katy. Axis options of squad wiping are more expensive, but they are also much more lethal.

Most axis players scream imbalance when allied tank or shell one shots a squad and they scream that nothing should one shot squad and then we have unit like sturmtiger which erases anything it hits below 140 fuel cost.


I play RTS games since settlers 2/C&C times I got my fair share of experience with all different kinds of them.

He mentions CoH1. He didn't mention that infantry in general was much more powerful and durable there, pretty much only artillery was a reliable way of disposing them. CoH2 infantry lethality itself is much greater

AoE profiles were nerfed multiple times, you can nerf them to extremely low values and you'll still see squad wipes, because all entities stand in a single place. Ever wondered why pre WFA only squad wipes were caused by odd 120mm or ISU random hits and not by stuff like Ostwinds or rifle nades?

Hell, I've seen a pshreck one shot 5 models once, its certainly not because of its AoE.

He's been playing a long time at a higher level. Players like Nosliw, Hans, Cataclaw, Barton, Budwise - they understand RTS better than you or me. It's always worth taking in their posts.

I know the squad clumping is the leading factor in insta-wipes. I've already said so. I only suggested that Aoe could also be tweaked to help the issue. Squad spread is the main factor.


Axis does have wipe options. As I said - they are more rarely seen and in fewer numbers.

"Most axis players scream imbalance when allied tank or shell one shots a squad and they scream that nothing should one shot squad and then we have unit like sturmtiger which erases anything it hits below 140 fuel cost." This is flamebaiting. "most axis players"? "scream"? C'mon... If they're screaming, ignore them. Discuss it with the rational players but discuss it without emotional provocation.


(Sturmtiger could also be up for discussion. I'm not saying it is good or bad for the game. That should be another thread) In any case, Sturmtiger fuel cost has to be adjusted and you have to take into account that it's an extremely rare unit because OKW can rarely choose it over the panther. Allied one-shotters are not rare, they are easily available. They also fire every few seconds not once a minute.


But my main point is that it's bad for ALL ARMIES to regularly lose full squads to one-shot units.

But my main point is that it's bad for ALL ARMIES to regularly lose full squads to one-shot units.

Well said, but how do you rationalize the cost of heavier "super vehicles" and more importantly, how do you set them apart from things that typically do the same thing but on a smaller level, i.e. how do you differentiate how much relative dmg a T3485 should do to a single squad vs how much relative dmg an IS-2 should do to the same squad? Or, in the case of Axis, differentiate between a Panzer IV, a Tiger, Tiger Ace, and King Tiger? If we took squad wiping out of the game, there would be no point in going for heavier units like the KT that you can usually count on to wipe a whole squad.

I think there are a lot of design choices in this game that need to be re-thought before we can start solving problems like 1-shotted squads.

He's been playing a long time at a higher level. Players like Nosliw, Hans, Cataclaw, Barton, Budwise - they understand RTS better than you or me. It's always worth taking in their posts.

They unquestionably have more skill and ability then us.
Understanding of the game is something on the same level, but still separate issue.

You don't have to be a driver to understand how you should behave on the street.

"Most axis players scream imbalance when allied tank or shell one shots a squad and they scream that nothing should one shot squad and then we have unit like sturmtiger which erases anything it hits below 140 fuel cost." This is flamebaiting. "most axis players"? "scream"? C'mon... If they're screaming, ignore them. Discuss it with the rational players but discuss it without emotional provocation.

Not really a flame baiting, simply pointing out double standards.
B-4 wiping stuff? Hell broke loose.
ST doing the same? God forbid anyone touches that!
Thats my point here.
We can still skip it though as its not that important for this discussion at the moment.

But my main point is that it's bad for ALL ARMIES to regularly lose full squads to one-shot units.

Matter of balance really(and squad bunching again). Even in coh1 where infantry were terminators compared to what CoH2 offers the abilities to instantly erase whole infantry force was far greater and much more frequent with all the artys, goliaths, AT nade on AT mine trick, AVRE and many more.

Squad wipes will always be part of the game, especially if we're using bigger guns or HE shells.

The smaller guns, like P4 or T34, squad wipes are exclusively because of bunching and no aoe fixing will prevent or even diminish that.

Heal the cause, not the symptoms.

It's not Star Craft. Pure math war-game would be boring as hell. Squad wipes are needed.

Im playing RTSes for ages. Not big-ones like StarCraft or WarCraft, cause they are boring with their predictability. Cossacks 1? Amazing, most of the time mirror design RTS game with unit like multibarrel cannon, regular cannon or howitzers able to kill 10-30 models per shot, apart from regular fight between soldiers.
Warlord Battlecry? Great RTS, 16 factions, still balanced with abilities to wipe entire army in a seconds.
Battle for middle-earth? Ents, nazguls' beasts smashing whole squads.

Wiping squads is part of the game, very good one. It's just Ostheer and USF suffer more from this than Soviets and OKW )which float MP so much that in place of wiped squad can put 2 squads).

As for wiping potential, OKW and Ostheer have better options.

Of course, there are units like ISU and KV2 but they are sluggish and they have reload over 10secs. There is doctrinal Bulldozer, which is worst that Brummbar. HE Sherman which is slighty better than Stug E but it also has bigger scatter and finally IS2 which has AoE only 0,5 bigger than Tigers while being very inaccurate.

On the other hand Axis have flaks, which are amazing and killing groups of infantry per burst. Brummbar, Tiger, Tiger Ace, King Tiger (which is wiping machine) or Sturmtiger.

Allies have only better mortar in terms of wiping potential. But if we look at vehicles, Axis are slighty in front.

Of course, Im pissed when my brand new Obers with LMG clump so much that first shell from Pack kills them all but that the problem with clumping, not with wiping potential.
"Spread out" button would solve many issues.

not sure if trolling. must be.

It's not Star Craft. Pure math war-game would be boring as hell. Squad wipes are needed.

I'm sorry but I have to disagree 100% with this. RTS games are designed at their core to be a battle of wits and skill between two players on a grand battle scheme. Games like StarCraft take this to the extreme, where randomness is reduced to near 0 in order to maximize the "skill vs skill" component, whereby you are only punished for making mistakes, rather from RNG.

That being said, RNG and squad wiping doens't produce a good war-game. It simply punishes you for no reason. Squads should be wiped for the sole reason you had squad wipes in CoH1: you weren't paying attention, and so you suffer the consequences. Losing squads randomly (like that game of Hans vs Paul on Angoville where Paul lost 4 man Falls to single T70 shots) merely punishes one player for no reason. Sure this allows for come backs and lead consolidation, but when you know you are outplaying someone it is frustrating to have luck come in. Even games like Chess and Checkers have it figured out that RNG is bad and games should focus on strategic skill and positioning.

@Sneakking, you cannot justify the use of late game tanks is to squad wipe. Their use comes from their ability to soak damage while dealing heavy damage to vehicles, and to consistently inflict manpower drain on the opponent. As a player you want to field vehicles which are superior to the opponent and which can supplement your army composition. The manpower drain via tanks was done perfectly in CoH1 due to the way the squads behaved and tanks fired. Late game tanks like the Pershing/Tiger would consistently get between 1-3 kills off a squad per shot, but never squad wiped. Thus if you are not paying attention or are blobbing uncontrollably and refuse to retreat, you get punished by consistently being bad and getting shot. If I were to, say, rush a KT in CoH2 with my Captain or Guards squad in order to lay support for a tank and the squad gets 1 shotted instantly, I hope you can appreciate how that merely punishes the player without adding to strategic depth.

And for someone who said math-war game is boring as hell Australian, why are you discussing reload timers and AoE scatter? The "math" of it doesn't matter, what matters is that the undersized axis squads get wiped more easily by allied units. Also, let's not forget the squad wiping capabilities of mines. This is one I don't understand. In CoH1 mines would protect flanks by pinning squads and inflicting huge amounts of non-lethal damage, which if left unnoticed by the played who hit the mine resulted in squad wiping due to merely not retreating a low health squad. Again in CoH2 I've been punished terribly for no reason when a 4 man Ober squad gets squad wiped by walking over a soviet mine. In before the "noob get a minesweeper squad!" - As OKW you need the sturmpios to minesweeper... and a squad with such high combat utility and cost shouldn't be mine sweeping the entire map so your shitty volks can go around capping or flanking. This is another thing I don't understand. Who designed OKW and thought "lets make their pioneers super expensive and strong, and also make it so OKW needs schreks, that way they won't have munitions or the opportunity to upgrade minesweepers for a while. That way they need to blob and stay together to avoid unnecessary squad wipes".

+1 to the above