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Relic, you gonna fix 120mm, or not?

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27 Apr 2015, 07:35 AM
#161
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8



They're units of mass actually. Weight is measured in Newtons.

;)


I'll blame that mistake on very late hour last night(and for someone who actually got a master degree from physics... well, I shall not forget that mistake! :foreveralone: still that was like a decade ago so...) :)
Anyway, vast majority people over 16 know what I had on mind and probably figured it out correctly :)
27 Apr 2015, 07:46 AM
#162
avatar of JohnnyB

Posts: 2396 | Subs: 1

The 120 soviet mortar it's a verry powerful weapon. Soviets it's now easy mode taking OKW's place, with the condition for the player to have enough experience to know what to do.

Having these said, I don't realy think 120 mortar is OP. The only thing that really bothers me at it, is that one man left retreat bullshit. That shouldn't be. Fix that and the weapon it's ok, these are my 2 cents. It's not a cheap weapon.
27 Apr 2015, 08:56 AM
#163
avatar of RMMLz

Posts: 1802 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Apr 2015, 07:46 AMJohnnyB
The 120 soviet mortar it's a verry powerful weapon. Soviets it's now easy mode taking OKW's place, with the condition for the player to have enough experience to know what to do.

Having these said, I don't realy think 120 mortar is OP. The only thing that really bothers me at it, is that one man left retreat bullshit. That shouldn't be. Fix that and the weapon it's ok, these are my 2 cents. It's not a cheap weapon.


Being expensive doesn't justify over performance.. The problem with 120mm is mainly due to infantry clumping (duh!) both in and out of cover and the one man operator as you said. I have no problem with it hard countering support weapons, but damn those 1 shot infantry wipes are just terrible specially if you don't blob.


PS:
Some games have "Infantry formation options". I wish we had that in CoH, so you can simply order the squad to change their formation (V, line, Crystal, etc.). Hell, even simple infantry spacing modes can be great (And as far as I know, it's easy to implement and Cruzz did that). Just a simple button to let you change the spacing a bit (tight or spread).








Spolierz cuz off-topic.
27 Apr 2015, 11:13 AM
#164
avatar of Highfiveeeee

Posts: 1740

I don't mind the 120mm being very strong and doing a lot of damage especially to weapon teams and structures but as RMMLz wrote it's just annoying that there is a rather big chance (in comparison to other mortars)to wipe a whole squad with a single round and there is nothing you can do about it.

If you're capping a sector that is relatively close to the 120mm you have to keep in mind that the risk of losing your capping squad is at least about 1/3 all the time. It's about 90% if the enemy is aware where your squad stands and uses precision strike.
27 Apr 2015, 12:27 PM
#165
avatar of spajn
Donator 11

Posts: 927

Just had a game where 120mm wiped 3 full health squads in row on its first shot... when is relic gonna fix this? oh right they are busy making medic mods lol.... no wonder this game is dwindling in playernumbers
27 Apr 2015, 13:04 PM
#166
avatar of JohnnyB

Posts: 2396 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Apr 2015, 08:56 AMRMMLz



PS:
Some games have "Infantry formation options". I wish we had that in CoH, so you can simply order the squad to change their formation (V, line, Crystal, etc.). Hell, even simple infantry spacing modes can be great (And as far as I know, it's easy to implement and Cruzz did that). Just a simple button to let you change the spacing a bit (tight or spread).





I have to disagree with formations choosing option. That would mean crazy micro added on a game that is already micro intensive. Think about it, you'll have to change formations for every situation. The solution is far more simple, Relic should solve the spacing problem, while not ruining cover optimal positioning.

I don't think this would be such a big deal, someone solved this through a mode.
27 Apr 2015, 13:24 PM
#167
avatar of RMMLz

Posts: 1802 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Apr 2015, 13:04 PMJohnnyB


I have to disagree with formations choosing option. That would mean crazy micro added on a game that is already micro intensive. Think about it, you'll have to change formations for every situation. The solution is far more simple, Relic should solve the spacing problem, while not ruining cover optimal positioning.

I don't think this would be such a big deal, someone solved this through a mode.


Well, it's just some piece of thought and we are not gonna have something like this in the game. But just for clarification, adding more micro-demanding mechanics to the game is not a bad thing. If someone is skilled enough, they will be rewarded. And besides, what I have in mind is not micro demanding that much. Just two options for each squad, Tight Formation (just like what we have and Loose or Spread Formation (something like we had before). They've made the current changes to make it easier for larger squads (mostly Allies) to use cover which is a good thing early in the game when there are no 120s, Katys and Stukas.

This is pointless anyway, no reason to discuss this.
27 Apr 2015, 18:41 PM
#168
avatar of daspoulos

Posts: 1116 | Subs: 1

Permanently Banned
jump backJump back to quoted post27 Apr 2015, 12:27 PMspajn
Just had a game where 120mm wiped 3 full health squads in row on its first shot... when is relic gonna fix this? oh right they are busy making medic mods lol.... no wonder this game is dwindling in playernumbers


Please wait 1-3 months for relic to start attempt #1 at balancing this unit. Please wait 4-6 for it to actually be 90% fixed.
27 Apr 2015, 19:08 PM
#169
avatar of PanzerGeneralForever

Posts: 1072

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Apr 2015, 08:56 AMRMMLz




PS:
Some games have "Infantry formation options". I wish we had that in CoH, so you can simply order the squad to change their formation (V, line, Crystal, etc.). Hell, even simple infantry spacing modes can be great (And as far as I know, it's easy to implement and Cruzz did that). Just a simple button to let you change the spacing a bit (tight or spread).



I like this idea alot but it would change so much of the game. It would buff all infantry and nerf all tanks that arent tank destroyers. It buff ostheer the most because they have the biggest problem with squad wipes. Demos and soviet mines wouldnt wipe as often, IS2 would be even more ineffective verse infantry, Pgrens would be super scary to any allied tanks that don't have a high ROF. It would also make grenades fair less useful because most players would have their infantry in spread formation so nades and mortars wouldn't wipe the whole squad.
27 Apr 2015, 20:33 PM
#170
avatar of acosn

Posts: 108 | Subs: 1

I dunno, I've had plenty of games where the German mortar I decrewed and stole ended up with a much better efficiency rating than the 120mm mortar I built myself.
27 Apr 2015, 21:15 PM
#171
avatar of Arclyte

Posts: 692

The ost mortar is definitely better, its got less range but fires 3 shots for every soviet mortar shot

The 120 is viable, so it gets calls for nerfs. No one picks up the 82 (probably because no one builds them), but the ostheer mortar is like finding an LMG on the ground, everyone rushes to steal it
27 Apr 2015, 21:21 PM
#172
avatar of daspoulos

Posts: 1116 | Subs: 1

Permanently Banned
jump backJump back to quoted post27 Apr 2015, 21:15 PMArclyte
The ost mortar is definitely better, its got less range but fires 3 shots for every soviet mortar shot

The 120 is viable, so it gets calls for nerfs. No one picks up the 82 (probably because no one builds them), but the ostheer mortar is like finding an LMG on the ground, everyone rushes to steal it

Sigh* Ost mortars can't one shot squads. 82mm mortars are least effective in axis hands because they have slowest rate of fire against biggest squads in game. stolen 120 efficiency is higher because you don't pay for it, and its more likely to get more kills (but less wipes) because there's more models to kill.

Why is it that the ost 81mm mortar (a supposedly better mortar than the 120) has created less uproar on the forum. Than the 120 has this current patch despite being confirmed better? PLEASE tell me. Unless you believe the illuminati is controlling our minds into thinking ALLIES OP just cuz?
27 Apr 2015, 21:44 PM
#173
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Apr 2015, 21:15 PMArclyte
The ost mortar is definitely better, its got less range but fires 3 shots for every soviet mortar shot

The 120 is viable, so it gets calls for nerfs. No one picks up the 82 (probably because no one builds them), but the ostheer mortar is like finding an LMG on the ground, everyone rushes to steal it


The 82 is more accurate, so it doesn't need to fire as many shots. It's also shooting at much smaller squads as well.

Asymmetrical balance.
27 Apr 2015, 21:48 PM
#174
avatar of WingZero

Posts: 1484

The mortar is 400mp thus limiting unit build early game, I just use scout car harassment. The only way to deal with them at the moment is to kite and flank it, the unit is OP on certain maps.
27 Apr 2015, 21:52 PM
#175
avatar of ZombiFrancis

Posts: 2742

My guess on why the Ostheer mortar isn't deemed so powerful is because it doesn't create squad wiping explosions very often, (usually only around corners and vaulting squads) and that it is only accurate with its autofire, not it's barrage ability, which I think many people use to their own detriment.
27 Apr 2015, 22:58 PM
#176
avatar of Australian Magic

Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2

Apart from wiping potential, I tried to use in last few day double 120 and double GrW34. There was not even a single game where 120 had better efficiency than GrW34 and only 1 game where 120s had more kills.

So 800MP is not better at killing than 480 MP (without looking at squad wiping potential).

If you look at MP cost, I would take 2 GrW34 over 1 120.
27 Apr 2015, 23:50 PM
#177
avatar of ilGetUSomDay

Posts: 612



They're units of mass actually. Weight is measured in Newtons.

;)



You are half correct, Metric system uses mass as a means of measuring weight even though Newtons(N) is the force. You'll notice nobody goes around measuring their weight in Newtons

Mass is a better means of understanding weight universally, 10 kg is 10 kg no matter what gravity you are on so the relevant aspect goes away.

for example, I can have a kg on earth and a kg on the moon. the kg object is the same in both cases but the force is completely different. So in a sense, using kg as"weight" while not technically correct gives a solid description of the object
27 Apr 2015, 23:56 PM
#178
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1

Apart from wiping potential, I tried to use in last few day double 120 and double GrW34. There was not even a single game where 120 had better efficiency than GrW34 and only 1 game where 120s had more kills.

So 800MP is not better at killing than 480 MP (without looking at squad wiping potential).

If you look at MP cost, I would take 2 GrW34 over 1 120.


Do you seriously only look at kills when judging the performance of a unit because by that standard every Axis unit is better because every Axis unit will always be shooting at more infantry and killing more infantry.

two GrW34's might kill more models in the same game as 2 120's, but they will wipe far less squads and cause far less manpower drain.

The B4 had the worst ROF of any unit in the game but it was and still is great, the Sturmtiger is mostly the same but it remains good because of the impact of being able to just erase squads and tanks off the field.
28 Apr 2015, 02:12 AM
#179
avatar of acosn

Posts: 108 | Subs: 1



Do you seriously only look at kills when judging the performance of a unit because by that standard every Axis unit is better because every Axis unit will always be shooting at more infantry and killing more infantry.

two GrW34's might kill more models in the same game as 2 120's, but they will wipe far less squads and cause far less manpower drain.

The B4 had the worst ROF of any unit in the game but it was and still is great, the Sturmtiger is mostly the same but it remains good because of the impact of being able to just erase squads and tanks off the field.




Unless I missed something, efficiency rating is driven by the absolute value of damage done. Consistently killing and forcing infantry to retreat can be more valuable than wiping out the squad if the net cost of consistently reinforcing them without producing results becomes greater than the actual value of the squad.



Unless I'm dealing with a campy motherfucker I don't really think about building the 120mm howitzers.
28 Apr 2015, 03:02 AM
#180
avatar of akula

Posts: 589

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Apr 2015, 02:12 AMacosn




Unless I missed something, efficiency rating is driven by the absolute value of damage done. Consistently killing and forcing infantry to retreat can be more valuable than wiping out the squad if the net cost of consistently reinforcing them without producing results becomes greater than the actual value of the squad.



Unless I'm dealing with a campy motherfucker I don't really think about building the 120mm howitzers.


you aren't considering the time it takes to rebuild the squad that gets wiped as well as the extra cost (IE: if 4 men get wiped in a gren squad, wiping the squad, the efficiency rating you refer to will only be 25% more, it will not reflect the fact that rebuilding that squad will cost more than reinforcing 4 men on 2 separate occasions.)
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