Conversion abilities destroy flow

Play 4vs4 and get your own answers, but its probably too much for you, better to call 4vs4 players low skilled scum that have no idea what's the problem with a doctrine in their game mod.

Btw, It took you an entire day to formulate your answer and try to keep your dignity in your reply?

Well, unlike you, I didn't intend no ad hominem with my replay, while I just stated my opinion related to CAS and the behavior of this doctrine on different sized maps no matter how many players would these involve. From this point of view, you can't tell me that you play a different game on 4v4.

P.S. : See? I could do it in a civilized way with no ad hominem attacks instead just replaying to you that "4v4 heroes wanna be" have nothing to teach me about game or doctrines and that the skill and game knowledge is not accomplished by playing 4v4.

Oh, and I'm sure you have learned everything about CAS in your 8 Ostheer games.

Resource conversion abilities would be fine if they had actual counterplay. Fuel caches can be killed, luft supply can be pressured/stolen, lend lease can be shot down, soviet industry halves manpower, OKW conversion isn't 100% efficient, and relies on the OKW player actually holding enough points to make it a meaningful increase. The problem with CAS is that not only is the fuel -> muni conversion instant, it also has 100% efficiency and comes in a doctrine stacked with plane callins that cannot be shot down until after the plane shoots its payload.

CAS blobs do have a weakness in terms of vehicles, but I believe that there needs to be a bigger drawback for using fuel to muni. Ost doesn't really NEED armor because it has muni AT in the form of pgrens and a very nice ATG in the form of the pak 40.

This being said, I very much like fuel -> muni in ostruppen doc because there is no real muni sink in the doctrine itself (besides railway which is very lategame, expensive, and more of an area-denial tool). This means that even using fuel -> muni to boost your midgame makes you weak to artillery as a blob counter and opposing infantry. Both of these are fully and partially negated by CAS doctrine.

What's more the ability is so efficient that a Fuel Cache yields more munitions than a Munitions Cache.

the biggest issue right now, is that LMGproGrens and shrecks are overperforming hence it neglect any armor disadvantages it creates.

back in those days of squadwiping capabilites, no ostheer dared to solely rely on this commander

Well, unlike you, I didn't intend no ad hominem with my replay, while I just stated my opinion related to CAS and the behavior of this doctrine on different sized maps no matter how many players would these involve. From this point of view, you can't tell me that you play a different game on 4v4.

P.S. : See? I could do it in a civilized way with no ad hominem attacks instead just replaying to you that "4v4 heroes wanna be" have nothing to teach me about game or doctrines and that the skill and game knowledge is not accomplished by playing 4v4.

Oh, and I'm sure you have learned everything about CAS in your 8 Ostheer games.

Your opinion is inappropriate when we are talking 4vs4 because you don't know what you're talking about in this game mod. You think yourself superior of 4vs4 players because 1vs1 requires more micro which is just plenty stupid. 4vs4 has little to do with micromanagement but a lot to with teamplay, where CAS unique drawback is fully compensate by what other Ostheer and OWK players can field while it completely annihilates Allied late game strength.

But you don't know that, because you don't play 4vs4, because in your imagination its a game mod dedicated for low level players that should simply shut up before yourself and your high authority as 1vs1 specialist.

Resource conversion abilities would be fine if they had actual counterplay. Fuel caches can be killed, luft supply can be pressured/stolen, lend lease can be shot down, soviet industry halves manpower, OKW conversion isn't 100% efficient, and relies on the OKW player actually holding enough points to make it a meaningful increase. The problem with CAS is that not only is the fuel -> muni conversion instant, it also has 100% efficiency and comes in a doctrine stacked with plane callins that cannot be shot down until after the plane shoots its payload.

CAS blobs do have a weakness in terms of vehicles, but I believe that there needs to be a bigger drawback for using fuel to muni. Ost doesn't really NEED armor because it has muni AT in the form of pgrens and a very nice ATG in the form of the pak 40.

This being said, I very much like fuel -> muni in ostruppen doc because there is no real muni sink in the doctrine itself (besides railway which is very lategame, expensive, and more of an area-denial tool). This means that even using fuel -> muni to boost your midgame makes you weak to artillery as a blob counter and opposing infantry. Both of these are fully and partially negated by CAS doctrine.

wise words.

Ost absolutely needs armor or it will get trollrolled lategame, no matter how many Paks or PGrens you got on the map, for the simple reason that you will not be able to trade effectively, as you will not kill well microed tanks with Paks alone while you keep bleeding manpower, and armour will shut down any and all unprotected counterharassment - in 1v1 that is. Good OH players will eventually cease trading fuel and actually build some sort of armour of their own or they get attrited too severely.
CAS is so annoying to play against because the whole conventional gameplay dynamics one is used to, ie. Allied timing pushes, the fragility of OH infantry and their early-midgame unit composition is actually turned on its head: Massed LMG grens will win and even potentially dominate the infantry engagements, lots of munis in the bank for Fausts/Tellers make light vehicle pushes that much more risky, etc.. However, this comes at an obvious price and if you want to fight CAS you actually need to play the attrition game, draw the game out, start wiping his squads with indirect fire and counterharassment and build up a critical mass of armour over time before you commit to any balls-deep moves.

What people also forget with Resource Conversion is that if have built tanks and are keeping your units alive; it gives you something to do with all that fuel income you have.


However, in Ostruppen conversion is not a problem, because spamming Railway Artillery in your LOS isn't that helpful - and that commander has no inherent recon ability.


I therefore suspect that the thing that makes CAS so powerful is the synergy with the inherent recon, remove that (or link it to a Luftwaffe Officer like in TOW) and it would be less problematic

What's more the ability is so efficient that a Fuel Cache yields more munitions than a Munitions Cache.

Wait seriously

Wait seriously

3 fuel / min for a fuel cache.
5 munitions / min for muni cache.

50 fuel = 200 muni.
Ergo, ratio = 1/4 = 3/12.


Building a muni cache nets you 5 munitions for every 12 you would get converting from fuel.


Numbers are real.

3 fuel / min for a fuel cache.
5 munitions / min for muni cache.

50 fuel = 200 muni.
Ergo, ratio = 1/4 = 3/12.


Building a muni cache nets you 5 munitions for every 12 you would get converting from fuel.


Numbers are real.

except conversion gives you 150 munitions, but the conversion is still very effective.

And the cool down is very quick, so you can basically do that as fast as your fuel comes in

Effective munition income of 200 per minute or so is not impossible to reach with controlling half the map and fuel caches everywhere

where CAS unique drawback is fully compensate by what other Ostheer and OWK players can field while it completely annihilates Allied late game strength.

To many words for just stating your opinion which was the only thing required.
Don't want to flame you further, I have nothing to discuss realy with a player that has only 8 Axis games so I'll stop here. Just for the record, I completely disagree + my opinion is enirely viable for the reasons I stated before. Keep lying to yourself imagining that 4v4 is so different game compared to 3v3.

To many words for just stating your opinion which was the only thing required.
Don't want to flame you further, I have nothing to discuss realy with a player that has only 8 Axis games so I'll stop here. Just for the record, I completely disagree + my opinion is enirely viable for the reasons I stated before. Keep lying to yourself imagining that 4v4 is so different game compared to 3v3.

It's funny to see someone arguing over my playcard while hiding his. Note that I'm not interested in seeing it. You probably kept it hidden for some good reasons.

Now imagine what you want about 4vs4, its your right after all but don't come to people who actually play 4vs4 to try to teach them your imaginative opinion.

Converting fuel->muni isn't "100% efficient", it's way over 100% in terms of relative quantity of munitions. You don't have three times as much muni as fuel, but that's the ratio you get for the convert ability.

Regarding caches in terms of muni vs fuel as people were discussing above:

50 / 3 = 16.66 minutes for 1 fuel cache to generate 50 fuel
150 / 5 = 30 minutes for 1 munitions cache to generate 150 munitions

So fuel caches will generate munitions 1.8x faster than munitions caches will when using CAS doctrine. 50 fuel-> 83 munitions would be the "correct" ratio to make these even, however nobody would trade 50 fuel for 83 munitions because one is simply more valuable than the other. However, I think 120 munitions might be more fair for the conversion.

However, in Ostruppen conversion is not a problem, because spamming Railway Artillery in your LOS isn't that helpful - and that commander has no inherent recon ability.

I see people are mainly complaining about ostheer blob efficiency more than the air strikes. Therefore I have to tell you: yes, Ostruppen doctrine has it too, but it's not such of a problem because people don't use this doctrine correctly.

Why spamming railway arty which will never hit a thing when you can convert, convert convert, build your blob and, in addition, place that arty officer in it with his abilities? I promise you, Ostruppen doctrine gren+pgren blob > CAS blob. But people will rather use the ostruppen for early map invasion.

If used correctly, this doctrine will start the same amount of whinings as CAS does.

I think that what this people want is soviets steamrolling everything because they allways attack the slightest chance of ostheer (or okw) to give an apropriate respond. Well I say let's do it, and see if they will like the game then.

Hey guys

Conversion abilities like spend ammo to get more fuel from Lend Lease and spend fuel for more ammo from CAS are IMO really bad for the flow for the game.

You can get a T70 out extremely fast and tech all the way, though it has a huge downside of the planes having a huge chance to get shot down.

CAS destroys the entire weakness of Werh being ammo starved and forces the opponent to micro alot higher then you do. Same with the fuel to ammo conversion Doctrine that has the Stuka dive? You can actually keep spamming the ability in teamgames and deny 1 part of the map constantly in late game when your army hit pop cap and it doesn't matter if you spend the fuel.

I don't understand how this is balanced. Top 20 people 2 vs 2 get such a huge boost from these doctrines and ruin the flow of the game. You can only wait/retreat. I think it's frustrating. In 1 vs 1 it really depends on the map, but that already says something.

I would suggest making the ability cheaper and with alot less resources gain back and with a bigger cooldown. Or make it drop as a plane as well. At least the lend lease plane can get shot down. Fuel to ammo conversion is just an instant click button.

Fuel to Ammo conversion is very unfair?

therefore, the MP to Fuel in Soviet industry is immensely unfair?!!

Fuel to Ammo conversion is very unfair?

therefore, the MP to Fuel in Soviet industry is immensely unfair?!!

Soviet industry is extremely unfair to the soviet player actually as you have no control over conversion, benefit is not instant and disadvantages heavily outweighs advantages(have fun arguing that, the popularity and presence of industry doctrine in the games speaks for itself).

With CAS conversion its 100% your call, you don't need it, you don't use it, you need it, there, instant reward!

So you have picked a really bad example to compare.

If one resource conversion ability is plain OP, its this one as all others give up something that can't be made up for or are counterable or dependent on additional factors.
Industry will punish you sooner or later because of constant penalty that fuel does not make up for.
Opels can be destroyed.
Luftwaffe supply drops can be stolen, require your unit to be there and are extended over 1 minute.
OKW conversion is dependent on territory capped, doesn't grant instant reward and you are slowing down your other resource income akin to industry, but you can switch and turn it off at will.

CAS conversion(which is also present in other doctrine, but isn't as imbalanced there) is simple click for reward with little choice as you are still able to tech and get armor reliably.

Soviet industry is extremely unfair to the soviet player actually as you have no control over conversion, benefit is not instant and disadvantages heavily outweighs advantages(have fun arguing that, the popularity and presence of industry doctrine in the games speaks for itself).

With CAS conversion its 100% your call, you don't need it, you don't use it, you need it, there, instant reward!

So you have picked a really bad example to compare.

If one resource conversion ability is plain OP, its this one as all others give up something that can't be made up for or are counterable or dependent on additional factors.
Industry will punish you sooner or later because of constant penalty that fuel does not make up for.
Opels can be destroyed.
Luftwaffe supply drops can be stolen, require your unit to be there and are extended over 1 minute.
OKW conversion is dependent on territory capped, doesn't grant instant reward and you are slowing down your other resource income akin to industry, but you can switch and turn it off at will.

CAS conversion(which is also present in other doctrine, but isn't as imbalanced there) is simple click for reward with little choice as you are still able to tech and get armor reliably.

Great posts! I absolutely agree with you on all points. I'm glad the thread is back on track again. Thanks for the responses guys 4Head.

Soviet industry is extremely unfair to the soviet player actually as you have no control over conversion, benefit is not instant and disadvantages heavily outweighs advantages(have fun arguing that, the popularity and presence of industry doctrine in the games speaks for itself).

With CAS conversion its 100% your call, you don't need it, you don't use it, you need it, there, instant reward!

So you have picked a really bad example to compare.

If one resource conversion ability is plain OP, its this one as all others give up something that can't be made up for or are counterable or dependent on additional factors.
Industry will punish you sooner or later because of constant penalty that fuel does not make up for.
Opels can be destroyed.
Luftwaffe supply drops can be stolen, require your unit to be there and are extended over 1 minute.
OKW conversion is dependent on territory capped, doesn't grant instant reward and you are slowing down your other resource income akin to industry, but you can switch and turn it off at will.

CAS conversion(which is also present in other doctrine, but isn't as imbalanced there) is simple click for reward with little choice as you are still able to tech and get armor reliably.

Lol, I wouldn't let you balance not even a billiard game.