Should OKW be able to build caches?

The reason why caches for OKW would be a bad idea is because it would give them far more income than they were supposed to have (talking in a ones perspective).

Imagine, for a scond, that an OKW player has his/her infantry horde of 2 obers /pfus + 4 volkshreck. The OKW player is folating 800mp, and doesn't need more tech to field KT. WHat does he do? He takes that mp and puts it into fuel caches. These caches do not detract from his infantry horde (he already has them), because they do not bleed his income over time, it is merely a sink for excess manpower. This results in a KT coming out much faster than it normally would, but at little to no real cost the the OKW player, because he was just going to be floating the mp anyways.

This is the problem with adding caches to OKW. I would be fine if OKW had for example access maybe to an opel truck for 400mp and 10 popcap, so that the boost to economy would come at a great cost to not only manpower, but to future manpower income. I honestly don't think that OKW really needs any opels trucks or caches anyways, the faction is fine as it is.

You can't on the one hand ask for MP sinks and the other complain that everything that is too expensive...

I'm not saying it's to expensive, I'm saying that you have literally 2 options and that's it.

The reason why caches for OKW would be a bad idea is because it would give them far more income than they were supposed to have (talking in a ones perspective).

Imagine, for a scond, that an OKW player has his/her infantry horde of 2 obers /pfus + 4 volkshreck. The OKW player is folating 800mp, and doesn't need more tech to field KT. WHat does he do? He takes that mp and puts it into fuel caches. These caches do not detract from his infantry horde (he already has them), because they do not bleed his income over time, it is merely a sink for excess manpower. This results in a KT coming out much faster than it normally would, but at little to no real cost the the OKW player, because he was just going to be floating the mp anyways.

This is the problem with adding caches to OKW. I would be fine if OKW had for example access maybe to an opel truck for 400mp and 10 popcap, so that the boost to economy would come at a great cost to not only manpower, but to future manpower income. I honestly don't think that OKW really needs any opels trucks or caches anyways, the faction is fine as it is.

Your first point contradicts the second. If OKW was fine then it wouldn't float insanely huge amounts of MP.

EDIT: Although it destroys my soul to have to point this out (since it should be insanely obvious) the MP float wouldn't occur if you had caches to make since like with every other faction in the game you would invest your extra MP into caches, saying "oh and you will have 800 MP to!" just makes it seem like you don't understand that OKW doesn't actually get extra MP over other factions.

MP dumps + extra MP = no more extra MP not MP dumps + extra MP = extra MP.

I'm not saying it's to expensive, I'm saying that you have literally 2 options and that's it.

Sure sounds like you are complaining about it being too expensive

Oh what plentiful support weapons are these! A 480 MP ISG and a super fragile AT gun

Your first point contradicts the second. If OKW was fine then it wouldn't float insanely huge amounts of MP.

Or possibly they don't need to spend it all because their units are effective and get Vet bonuses to keep them alive?


So yes, if you just build 3 Volks and stall into K-T you will float MP.

If on the other hand you are using:

Raketens
MG-34s
ISGs
PFusiliers
Jeagers and Falls spawning behind the lines so they rarely survive
etc
etc

Suddenly you don't have a float; and that OKW actally have the MP to build PAK43s is a feature not a problem

Really, in so far as this is a problem at all, it applies only to Elite Armoured and Spec Ops

Your first point contradicts the second. If OKW was fine then it wouldn't float insanely huge amounts of MP.

Thats not true. All it means is that the OKW player is able to go through the game without large manpower expenditures. This just shows how cost efficient the OKW army is in fact. You can put that spare manpower into a raketen, or a pak43, or bunkers, or more obers, or an mg34, or a tank. The thing is that OKW doesn't really need much more than 2 obers + 4 volkshreck, so they don't usually feel pressured to make the decision to invest that manpower on units, and instead choose to sit on it as a "rainy day" fund. That is fine, OKW ends up waiting on the fuel to callin armor, like an opposite soviet industry.

You didn't address my point about how OKW would get a much higher income than is needed. Why does OKW need a larger fuel income than they currently have? You can normally get a panther by ~19 minutes, and will have all of your units either when they are needed, or before they are needed. Adding caches would simply increase the fuel income rate, which will mean that some units will arrive faster than they are supposed to, before their own counters arrive, and making it easier to replace lost armor, which is something I am fine with. OKW has scavenge. Take advantage of this ability to supplement your fuel income.

I'm yet to see any reason to add fuel caches besides "to negate manpower float," and it will only negate manpower float insofar as it allows you to supplement your fuel income at no real cost. The idea of fuel caches is that you are expending resources meant for your infantry/ armor on a higher fuel income which is a real choice for every other faction. OKW would just build caches with their float at no real cost.

imagine 4 okw players in 4v4 spamming caches.

they would skip panther and go straight for 18 minute KT's and Jt's

This idea being strictly doctrinal is the ideal compromise.

1) Not everyone will have it unless they all choose the same doctrine

2) Not everyone SHOULD go for that doctrine, because it might lack other doctrinal abilities like Command Panther and result in strategy problems; some doctrines just don't work in a large team setting if everyone plays it (re Defensive commanders)

3) The OKW player that goes for that doctrine will be spending MP towards utility, meaning less infantry blobbing/ infantry presence; again, the more players doing this the smaller the blob size

4) The increase in resource income will also encourage other OKW players to try to use more vehicles; reduces blobbing and creates different strategic situations for both OKW and allies/ enemies

5) This is all speculation: the enemy might make a mess of things and destroy the caches/ Opels/ etc., causing at best a temproary boost in munitions/ fuel at the flat cost of munitions per investment, at worst a waste of MP and time, and likely CP and map control to the enemy...which is the same scenario for the other factions

6) Not everyone will have tons of MP floating around for caches/ Opel trucks/ etc. Team coordination and keeping the MP in reserve rather than spent on more units is part of strategy. Again, same as other factions, you can choose to get another AT Gun or bunker, instead of a cache/ Opel/ etc. Which is strategy and risk. Sometimes, a cache that last a few mins before being lost can be enough to get you a vehicle that might turn things around.

The question of course remains of whether these benefits will outweigh infantry blobbing; so far infantry blobbing for OKW is necessary because, compared with all other options, it is cost-effective.

I think a means to spend manpower in exchange to a higher resource income is something OKW should have. Just not non-doctrinal. It's better if doctrinal because it adds variable flavour to OKW; if you want that option you choose that commander. You just also can't get some other things, which is the point of the commander idea.

A simple question really. What does the community feel about the OKW being able to build caches?


Disclaimer: The views and opinions expressed in my posts and topics are soley those of the original author (Napalm). These views and opinions do not necessarily represent those of Relic, the developers, and/or any/all contributors to this site.

Can I open a poll asking a simple question really myself too? " What does the community feel about removing OKW biggest weakness with no downside?"

And watch the community fight for nothing...

Can I open a poll asking a simple question really myself too? " What does the community feel about removing OKW biggest weakness with no downside?"

And watch the community fight for nothing...

He has his reasons because I also asked him what the garden he was thinking

is OKW not being able to make caches a problem?? does it represent a balance issue that OKW is not alowed to make caches??

I don´t think so....

Then, why are we discussing this???

He has his reasons because I also asked him what the garden he was thinking

So can't he put them down on the topic? Or maybe he takes fun watching the community fighting Alex bad faith.

I think a means to spend manpower in exchange to a higher resource income is something OKW should have.

no

I see Alex does not see difference between okw cache and for example ost cache.
For ost is big decission since MP is always an issue.
For okw its win - win. I have huge army and Im floating MP. Why should not spend this MP for caches? It would not be big deal to make cache for okw contrary to ost.

Caches would be somehow fine but with lower income than for other faction and with removing conversion.

Can someone write a mod where OKW is able to build Opel-Trucks?

Then, why are we discussing this???

My master agenda. I'm running another thread about balancing issues in large team games and resource distribution was identified as being a root cause. What I've drawn from this thread is that in 1v1 there is a solid 'no' to OKW being able to build caches, so why should they be able to benefit from them in team games?

I see Alex does not see difference between okw cache and for example ost cache.
For ost is big decission since MP is always an issue.
For okw its win - win. I have huge army and Im floating MP. Why should not spend this MP for caches? It would not be big deal to make cache for okw contrary to ost.

Caches would be somehow fine but with lower income than for other faction and with removing conversion.

I supported the Opal truck idea more for a reason, but keep that strawman up.

People also seem to be forgetting that the MP float also occurs because you get fairly high up in the pop cap department before you get vehicles since all you can really do is spam infantry.

(and Ostheer always having no manpower is an issue in and of itself that I'm suprised you don't think is a problem)

So can't he put them down on the topic? Or maybe he takes fun watching the community fighting Alex bad faith.

Point out a single post were I was arguing in bad faith.

My master agenda. I'm running another thread about balancing issues in large team games and resource distribution was identified as being a root cause. What I've drawn from this thread is that in 1v1 there is a solid 'no' to OKW being able to build caches, so why should they be able to benefit from them in team games?

Because Soviets benefit from American caches and Americans from Soviet caches? If everyone is spamming them than everyone it still on an equal playing field and OKW is still at a fuel disadvantage, they don't get full income from caches.

The reason why caches for OKW would be a bad idea is because it would give them far more income than they were supposed to have (talking in a ones perspective).

Imagine, for a scond, that an OKW player has his/her infantry horde of 2 obers /pfus + 4 volkshreck. The OKW player is folating 800mp, and doesn't need more tech to field KT. WHat does he do? He takes that mp and puts it into fuel caches. These caches do not detract from his infantry horde (he already has them), because they do not bleed his income over time, it is merely a sink for excess manpower. This results in a KT coming out much faster than it normally would, but at little to no real cost the the OKW player, because he was just going to be floating the mp anyways.

This is the problem with adding caches to OKW. I would be fine if OKW had for example access maybe to an opel truck for 400mp and 10 popcap, so that the boost to economy would come at a great cost to not only manpower, but to future manpower income. I honestly don't think that OKW really needs any opels trucks or caches anyways, the faction is fine as it is.

Thats not true. All it means is that the OKW player is able to go through the game without large manpower expenditures. This just shows how cost efficient the OKW army is in fact. You can put that spare manpower into a raketen, or a pak43, or bunkers, or more obers, or an mg34, or a tank. The thing is that OKW doesn't really need much more than 2 obers + 4 volkshreck, so they don't usually feel pressured to make the decision to invest that manpower on units, and instead choose to sit on it as a "rainy day" fund. That is fine, OKW ends up waiting on the fuel to callin armor, like an opposite soviet industry.

You didn't address my point about how OKW would get a much higher income than is needed. Why does OKW need a larger fuel income than they currently have? You can normally get a panther by ~19 minutes, and will have all of your units either when they are needed, or before they are needed. Adding caches would simply increase the fuel income rate, which will mean that some units will arrive faster than they are supposed to, before their own counters arrive, and making it easier to replace lost armor, which is something I am fine with. OKW has scavenge. Take advantage of this ability to supplement your fuel income.

I'm yet to see any reason to add fuel caches besides "to negate manpower float," and it will only negate manpower float insofar as it allows you to supplement your fuel income at no real cost. The idea of fuel caches is that you are expending resources meant for your infantry/ armor on a higher fuel income which is a real choice for every other faction. OKW would just build caches with their float at no real cost.

I believe this explanation should have ended any discussion regarding caches for OKW.

I'm glad we could have a thread requiring in depth knowledge of how OKW works when half the posters have less than 10 games played as OKW.

EDIT: The sky wouldn't call if OKW could take over from Ostheer in the logistics department, and OKW not being able to benefit from caches would make them have no scaling in the larger team games like the other factions which would all still benefit from caches.

My master agenda. I'm running another thread about balancing issues in large team games and resource distribution was identified as being a root cause. What I've drawn from this thread is that in 1v1 there is a solid 'no' to OKW being able to build caches, so why should they be able to benefit from them in team games?

I like your way of probing data.

I'm glad we could have a thread requiring in depth knowledge of how OKW works when half the posters have less than 10 games played as OKW.

Hey, I've told you before. You wanna question my skill? Play me 1v1. Till that happens F..off.


Besides it's funny how people who play exclusively one faction have little knowledge of it.

Hey, I've told you before. You wanna question my skill? Play me 1v1. Till that happens F..off.


Besides it's funny how people who play exclusively one faction have little knowledge of it.

You could take like half a second and click my player card to see I play way more than 1 faction, and Iv told you that you can add me if you desire your honor duel so bad~

OZtheWiZARD on steam. Add me. I'm in the game right now.