Ostheer, the never ending struggle

Ostheer is pretty difficult to play against aggressive rifle/con spam tactics.

But you can always just go for the good old "Grenspam -> double PAK -> StugE -> Tiger" strategy if you feel like you aren't getting the victories you deserve.

queenratchet we can do a 1v1 again if you really think this double mg strat doesnt work.

Kreygasm its on! Kreygasm

although it is a little biased towards you since you know what ill be doing but w/e

someone cast this!!!

someone cast this!!!

This.

i'd gladly if you guys are willing to be gentleman about it and have a set time.

start a thread!

Yes and then send it in to Imperial Dane and let him cast it

i think you seriously underestimate the power of properly positioned MG teams. im not claiming to be a super experienced 1v1 player, but in my 20 games (and 20 wins) as ostheer in 1v1, ive gone up against people from all skill ranges and am currently rank 64 and i can say that double MG start is the way to go against USF because a suppressed squad is a combat ineffective squad. youll have the manpower advantage in fights because your MG should always suppress one squad (240 mp vs 280 mp) with the possibility of catching 2 or 3 in the AoE suppression (240 mp countering 560 or 840 mp), and flame pioneers can actually go toe to toe with rifles, and grens in cover will pretty much always deal good damage to rifles when they try to approach to medium range.

well lemon, what about the m20 or m15aaht? well, thats what MG42s are for. placing an hmg into a building not only gives it good sight range, but once it hits vet you can incind rounds to rip right through light vehicles that approach. in addition you ABSOLUTELY should place teller mines here and there, you never know when they will be useful.

well lemon, what about grenades and smoke? you can hear and see when riflemen are about to throw grenades and smoke. so pack up ur fucking mg and reposition it. have your other MG or your supporting infantry constantly shooting at squads that get close and the riflemen WILL take casualties when trying to throw nades. since pioneer sight range is higher than riflemen sight range, your mg42s should get the first burst off against them, so they dont have a chance to pre-emptively smoke unless youve kept your machine guns in the same place the whole game. units are suppressed longer than your machine gun can pack up, so use that time to reposition if they f ire off a smoke grenade. remember that if your first MG gets into a tough spot, you can always reposition the second one as well to cover.

that takes too much micro! well fucking learn to play then. your opponents were probably the same skill or lower than the ones ive gone up against.

also in regards to flanking from 4+ sides, that is just absolutely ridiculous. maps are not just flat open fields. even langres there are shotblockers and natural barriers to funnel your opponents in. in kholodny ferma, theres like a maximum of 3 feasible flanking routes whereever you are on the map because thats the way the map is designed. its extremely difficult for players to get a full encirclement going because it means that a squad has to go ALL the way around without being detected. in addition one mg covers 270 degrees, thats a lot! sure, once it starts firing its difficult for it to traverse but it also doesnt mean its impossible. in addition you should always have supporting grens and flamers to help deal with close range rifles.

^This.

I'd throw a mortar to the mix as well. Synergise really well with suppression.
Key to play Ostheer correctly in my opinion is to not over extend in early game. Play defensively.

^This.

I'd throw a mortar to the mix as well. Synergise really well with suppression.
Key to play Ostheer correctly in my opinion is to not over extend in early game. Play defensively.

If you do so, you give away much of the map, thus negating any fuel advantage you might get, thus negating your own teching and delaying it, hampering your late game even further. Going heavy t1 is a necessity, but it will hamper you during mid game far to much. Going heavy t1 or do an early teching, it is the endless mortal struggle of choosing between 2 evils, 2 evils that don't favor you unless you have a certain map that works well with limiting flanking routes.

The strategy you hail, the one LemonJuice promoted, works well with certain maps. Then he proclaims you should get teller mines (60 muni) which will not give you any more ammo to spare for lmgs on grenns or any armor piercing incendiary rounds (if you get your mg vetted before it perhaps gets overwhelmed), unless you want your grenns to be outperformed and have no lmgs, then yes, go fast teller, if he doesn't go the route of the teller, your mg will have no armor piercing incendiary rounds available nor will you have enough ammo for a two fausts to kill an m20.

The strategy sounds solid, yet in practice it won't work if you face a competent USF player. Then we have the smoke nade issue, they will hamper their teching by what, 25 fuel?, no biggie, they have 80% of the map, that isn't even 1 minute before their investment is returned and starts paying itself off. Meanwhile you have nothing to spare because you are forced to group up and defend small parts of the map.

Ostheer is crippled from the start in a 1v1 if you face a good and competent opponent. If not, yes it might work well, but don't count on it beating any decent USF player with sitting around and defending a small part of the map while he is gaining fuel after fuel after fuel and will soon release his shermans and jacksons.

What is your definition of a "good" usf player? Top 500? Top 250? Or top 10? Perhaps you are just playing against players that are better than you, rather than you losing to an imbalanced faction. Also no where do I advocate being defensive for the whole game. people just have a pretty determined way they think the faction is to be played and are too afraid to really try new strategies that can potentially be very effective.

Edit: clarified

What is your definition of a "good" usf player? Top 500? Top 250? Or top 10? Also no where do I advocate being defensive for the whole game. people just have a pretty determined way they think the game is to be played and are too afraid to really try new strategies that can potentially be very effective.

Adding to that, many players think all factions play the same.
Many think if con spam works well, then volkspam or grenspam should be just as good or better, completely ignoring the tiering structure, unit availability, economy and so on and are greatly surprised and disappointed that army made to use combined arms does not so good when you spam one unit type over and over.

Some are still stuck in march deployment patch and its unthinkable for them that grenspam into tigers is not the way to go at all times.

Also just lmfao at "this strategy doesn't work in practice" WTF DO YOU MEAN LOL I use this strategy whenever I play as Ostheer in 1v1s wether it be ladder or in house customs, and have climbed ladder thanks to it. There's a concept called munitions budgeting, you should seriously consider it. Also incindieary rounds are a measly 15 munitions.

Ostheer is pretty difficult to play against aggressive rifle/con spam tactics.

But you can always just go for the good old "Grenspam -> double PAK -> StugE -> Tiger" strategy if you feel like you aren't getting the victories you deserve.

Always works, USF is difficult to win vs this strategy.

Adding to that, many players think all factions play the same.
Many think if con spam works well, then volkspam or grenspam should be just as good or better, completely ignoring the tiering structure, unit availability, economy and so on and are greatly surprised and disappointed that army made to use combined arms does not so good when you spam one unit type over and over.

Some are still stuck in march deployment patch and its unthinkable for them that grenspam into tigers is not the way to go at all times.

No faction plays the same, but we can't deny that some factions play far easier than others! USF and Soviets for example and in the previous patch the OKW was easy mode #1.

This is the point I am making, in a 1v1 T4 for Ostheer and panthers aren't viable. The grenspamm can work, 2 mg42s as well, but most of the times one gets overwhelmed in the early game when they have 2 mgs42s, it dependds on the MAP. Your infantry are so fragile with 4 man units, you are reliant upon lmg42s to have any punch (other than spam) and this will negate any early teller.

Getting pushed of is a no no and will result in gg 99% of the times. I do not proclaim to be a pro player, but I know what to do as Soviets against almost all strategies. With Ostheer, it is a struggle no matter what you do. You can all claim here that you have the wonder strategie, one that 'climbs the ladders', yet we have more people claiming that that strategy does not work all the time and more often, will result in utter faillure.

Face it, USF is far more potent than Ostheer in early game, FAR more. Soviets can be countered more effectively than USF, heck I would rather face heavy mortar spam then rifle spam.

No faction plays the same, but we can't deny that some factions play far easier than others! USF and Soviets for example and in the previous patch the OKW was easy mode #1.

This is the point I am making, in a 1v1 T4 for Ostheer and panthers aren't viable. The grenspamm can work, 2 mg42s as well, but most of the times one gets overwhelmed in the early game when they have 2 mgs42s, it dependds on the MAP. Your infantry are so fragile with 4 man units, you are reliant upon lmg42s to have any punch (other than spam) and this will negate any early teller.

Getting pushed of is a no no and will result in gg 99% of the times. I do not proclaim to be a pro player, but I know what to do as Soviets against almost all strategies. With Ostheer, it is a struggle no matter what you do. You can all claim here that you have the wonder strategie, one that 'climbs the ladders', yet we have more people claiming that that strategy does not work all the time and more often, will result in utter faillure.

Face it, USF is far more potent than Ostheer in early game, FAR more. Soviets can be countered more effectively than USF, heck I would rather face heavy mortar spam then rifle spam.

Multiple people are saying that 2 MG42 work and yet you keep insisting they don't.
Did you even consider maybe you are doing something wrong?

I used to go double mgs until I realized smoke so nah. Gren spam into mgs. If they smoke mg I just pray my nearby grens can survive the rifle onslaught while my mg pulls back to resetup. 3-4 grens, 1 mg, probably a mortar. Then halftrack and pak. From then on whatever.

Sniper if you are feeling ballsy.

The double mg does work, in the second game of the recent star crossed kings game on Langreskya it was pretty evident it held the OKW player in for quite awhile, similarly mg42's which are better, and grens with lmg which are better than volks can hold better.

Its all about positioning. Having two mgs next to, or one behind the other is a terrible idea. The most effective mg blob stoppage is split mgs using their huge arc slightly angled towards the center killing zone set up. One covering the other ment it gave time for the mgs to re position and keep up the fire.

Ostheer turbo mortar is a huge manpower drain as well, and against USF is basically un counter able due to the nature of USF tech. I say un-counterable because a good player wont expose them too hard to the front and loose their mortars unless there are counter mortars on the field or light vehicles who get the opportunity to zip in and decrew them.

Its all about positioning. Having two mgs next to, or one behind the other is a terrible idea. The most effective mg blob stoppage is split mgs using their huge arc slightly angled towards the center killing zone set up. One covering the other ment it gave time for the mgs to re position and keep up the fire.

I don't understand, how are they covering each other if they're overlapping their fire in the center? Aren't they then covering entirely different areas?

I don't understand, how are they covering each other if they're overlapping their fire in the center? Aren't they then covering entirely different areas?

with their large arcs, you can create and arc of cover fire that looks like this:

.__ __.
/.........\

The dots are just place fillers to make the figure work.

This is a general look, you can adjust the angles appropriately based on where the force lies. The gist is that you prepare for the army to attack a key route, which should be in the middle of the two mgs.

In the USF case when they approach your set up defense, they can smoke one or both but not before being slowed down by the suppression from being two mgs. simply kite back the one that is smoked not only backwards but towards your other mg's arc. The best way to save an mg is to soft retreat it into another covering arc. Your other supporting infantry should be around laying down fire. Any suppressed targets will remain suppressed so that leaves only a part of the US force free to move in pursuit or preposition.

If you have them covering different areas, as long as they are supported (single mgs die to counter harrasment vehicles or just two units spread out) you can cover a larger part of the map, but the dissadvantage is your forces a spread thin. A long ranged blob, or concentrated mortar fire can open up one of the flanks leaving you vulnerable to a central, and supported flank attack.

Really it boils down to the map, and a judgement call, but given enough practice it will become easier to tell which one of the set ups will work best at the give time.

The back in the day struggle when it was just Sovs and Ons, MG42 spam opening that supressed on the first burst and pinned on the 2ed.




Now its a struggle to spam more Pgrens with Panzerschrecks to counter all allied armor with A-moving.


Beacuse you know, fuck cover.