What about su-76?

So i saw a "what about su 85" thread and i thought that su-76 deserves one too.
Everybody knows that it sucks, but imo it didn't before it was "balanced". Last changes to su-76:

SU-76
The SU-76 fulfills the role of indirect fire support as well as anti-tank support. The AOE profile changes have improved the performance of its barrage, making it better suited at indirect fire vs. stationary targets.
Armor from 100 to 70
Rear armor from 50 to 35
Penetration from 93 to 100
Damage from 80 to 120
Reload from 2.375 to 2.9-3.4
Min range from 5 to 0
Scatter angle from 5.5 to 5
Distance scatter max from 10 to 4.7
Manpower cost from 160 to 210
Fuel cost from 55 to 75

Later the cost was changed to: 70 fuel, 240 mp.

If you look closely that looks suspiciously like a nerf: slight penetration buff, slight direct fire accuracy buff(but still can't hit infantry) and +33% dmg in exchange for about -33% rate of fire and moderate cost nerf. Imo, the cost is what makes su-76 bad currently.

Call-ins aside, before this nerf i would think: "mm, i can get one t34 or for 10 more fuel i can get two su 76" and the second option was not obviously worse. With guards button(now nerfed) and maxim support they were arguably stronger in defense department than one t34 be it against infantry or against medium tanks, also better at dealing with blobs and static defenses. Now you have to pay 40 more fuel for the same deal.

What is especially bad is that before this nerf you could expect to greet first panzer 4 with two su-76 on the field and third in production, now its one and second in production.

Anti infantry performance also greatly suffers form this as you need at least 3 or 4 to really make a good barrage (i believe barrage accuracy was nerfed as well but i'm too lazy to look it up).

Also, you can expect to lose some su-76 along the way given their fragility, and their health wasn't scaled with the cost nerf at all.

All this along with my opinion that this unit must be spammed to be effective leads to kinda like exponential decrease in performance. You lose fuel invested in su-76s faster while needing more fuel to get the pre-nerf effect.

So my suggestion is simple:
1). Decrease the fuel cost back to 55.
2). Make them deal 16,6%(that would be 20) damage on deflected shots so that they become somewhat viable in numbers against heavy armor(i'm 99% sure that tiger armor was buffed since that patch).
3). ???
4). PROFIT!

P.S. On deflected shots: So roughly: you can get 4 su 76 for the cost of one tiger(better have more but still). If they deal 20 damage while reloading about 50% faster than a zis, and zis have about 60% chance to penetrate while dealing 160 damage, they would be equal to about 1.25 zises dpswise against tigers front on non-penetrating shots. Seems ok.

T3 and T4 have retarded unit placement. T4 is support with katyusha rocket artillery and the su-85 tank destroyer. Then some bozo decides to shove the attempt at a jack of all trades su-seventyshit-m spg. Minus the AT capability and infantry support the actual tank had. DOES NOT BELONG

I still object that the t-70 and t34 are in the same tier, as the t34 undermines the t-70 (imo, since the t-70 would be seen much more often if it was in T4 as it is the elite infantry model sniper) by costing not much more.

I envision a t-70 guarding the katyusha and su-85 while the su-76m would be the ranged AT for the T34/76 as well as bonus artillery support but

HURR RELIC DESIGN T3 OR T4 (AKA use callins and screw that noise)

It seems to take years to do obvious, simple positive changes that only require a UI change... But new content and more bugs are more important.

The SU-76 is actually pretty good. It has long range, is cheap, and is surprisingly good AT, especially with vet. You can usually have 3 by the time a panzer 4 shows up and they easily defeat one in the open field. Plus you get to barrage everything when you have so many.

I've been using them lately in both 1v1 and team games and I've been impressed. Especially considering the cost.

The SU-76 is actually pretty good. It has long range, is cheap, and is surprisingly good AT, especially with vet. You can usually have 3 by the time a panzer 4 shows up and they easily defeat one in the open field. Plus you get to barrage everything when you have so many.

I've been using them lately in both 1v1 and team games and I've been impressed. Especially considering the cost.

Replays, replays, replays.

All SU-76 is good for is blowing up and feeding vet.

The SU-76 is actually pretty good. It has long range, is cheap, and is surprisingly good AT, especially with vet. You can usually have 3 by the time a panzer 4 shows up and they easily defeat one in the open field. Plus you get to barrage everything when you have so many.

I've been using them lately in both 1v1 and team games and I've been impressed. Especially considering the cost.

Well thats certainly not a common opinion on this forum. You have to outplay you opponent in early game to get 3 for one panzer 4 though. Thats what 210 fuel vs 125(?) fuel with current prices?
Well yea, if you get that serious early game advantage they are almost as good as they were, unless a lucky anti-tank strafe or shreked infantry flank kills half of them.

You don't need to significantly out play your opponent to get multiple SU-76's before their panzer 4. The Tech costs you've described aren't quite right.

For the Panzer 4 it costs (assuming building tier 2) 10+15+25+45+55 and then 125 fuel for the unit = 275

For Su-76 it's 50+120 and then 55 per Su = 170+70*

Assuming equal fuel you can basically get 2 SU-76's for the Panzer 4 but the idea is that you use your earlier fuel tier units to push the field a little bit as you will have the first SU-76 well before any tank you can use him to barrage infantry or support weapons and kill any half-track, scout car etc. Hopefully allowing you enough leway to squeeze out another SU-76 to help fight the panzer 4. You don't need the third though if you get an AT gun if you went tier 2.

On top of this, the Osteer player is more likely to delay his tech with a halftrack or scout car as well.

I haven't got any replays saved, because I don't normally save them, but I'll try and drum a few up in the next few days and post them in this thread.

Just to clarify the comment as well, I'm not saying SU-76 is an extremely powerful unit and the strategy I've described is a hard counter to Panzer 4's. I'm saying the unit is useful, not needing a buff, and can fulfill a variety of roles in 1v1 and 2v2.

Osteer also start with 30 less fuel than Soviets so factor that into tech

@Stonethecrow01 why are you talking about SU-76 being 55 fu?
It costs 70.

su-76 soo op.

Ive seen it about 6 times in the past year and a half

Sorry, you are right. My mistake.

I'll edited the equation above. It still makes it basically 2 SU-76's to one P4 assuming no fuel difference. Considering the difference in starting fuel.

SU-76's main gun performs fine in my opinion. The barrage ability takes too long to recharge, and at half cooldown I feel it would be pretty effective.

It really has no reason to kill Panzer IVs. What should kill medium tanks while being smaller than them is the Stug. That thing is purely anti-tank and its worse in every way than M10.

It is easily the worst unit in the game. The main gun is definitely not "fine".

The quickest way to make this unit passably useful is to increase the health to 400.

400 hp is the same as the StuG (another assault gun). It's a good break-point because it means the SU-76 takes three shots before it dies to AT guns and Panzer 4s rather than two shots.

What is the point of an AT assault gun that cannot trade even one blow with an enemy tank without needing to immediately panic because it will die on the next shot? This is a huge problem for the SU-76 as a soft anti-tank counter. It is more likely to get picked off by what it is supposed to fight.

I think you could buff the health of the SU-76 and it could see play as the first unit you get from Tier 4 if you rush the tech. It would not be a unit that you would build beyond a timing push (much like the T-70 which is rarely beyond the first one) but it could be okay at that.

Buff the health and then look at the unit. Does it need penetration? Does it need more damage? Does it need more utility? Does it need anything?

I suspect it would probably need a smaller buff in addition to health but not a whole lot.

StoneTheCrow1:
Assuming equal fuel you can basically get 2 SU-76's for the Panzer 4 but the idea is that you use your earlier fuel tier units to push the field a little bit as you will have the first SU-76 well before any tank you can use him to barrage infantry or support weapons and kill any half-track, scout car etc. Hopefully allowing you enough leway to squeeze out another SU-76 to help fight the panzer 4. You don't need the third though if you get an AT gun if you went tier 2.

I wan to talk about this idea.

This is what a T-70 does when it hits the field early. It crushes enemy light vehicles and gives you significant map control. It drives away problematic infantry and has the potential to wipe them out.

A rushed SU-76 can never really do this. The barrage is clumsy and it telegraphs the attack with an icon over the unit. You can choose to fire a barrage from outside of the enemy's line of sight but it will almost always miss the first shots at such a range. You can choose to bull-rush enemy infantry and surprise them with the barrage at close range: which puts you in danger and is still telegraphed by your rush and then the icon over the tank. Both options are bad and have a 60 second cooldown.

The SU-76 cannot seize map control. You lose map control and potential early game power by advancing your tech and buying this unit. That costs 240 manpower for the building + 270 for the SU-76. That's over two units of infantry you could have had out earlier and fighting.

It is unrealistic to expect the SU-76 to do anything in the short term for map control. It is a long-term unit that extracts value slowly through barrage and using its 60 range cannon to snipe away at enemy armor.

The SU-76 has no late game though because it is too easy to kill while doing its job. This is the paradox of the SU-76 we have today. A long-term unit that needs to be rushed and has no real future.

T3 and T4 have retarded unit placement. T4 is support with katyusha rocket artillery and the su-85 tank destroyer. Then some bozo decides to shove the attempt at a jack of all trades su-seventyshit-m spg. Minus the AT capability and infantry support the actual tank had. DOES NOT BELONG

I still object that the t-70 and t34 are in the same tier, as the t34 undermines the t-70 (imo, since the t-70 would be seen much more often if it was in T4 as it is the elite infantry model sniper) by costing not much more.

I envision a t-70 guarding the katyusha and su-85 while the su-76m would be the ranged AT for the T34/76 as well as bonus artillery support but

HURR RELIC DESIGN T3 OR T4 (AKA use callins and screw that noise)

It seems to take years to do obvious, simple positive changes that only require a UI change... But new content and more bugs are more important.

If t4 is boosted with t-70 nobody will ever build t3. That's because soviet t4 would have no disadvantages at all. It can be possible only if t3 will be significantly cheaper and t4 more expensive. But that makes for linear build and will probably never happen.

That said I'm playing the game since beta and in the early build su-76 actually had it's place in t4. It was just kind of stronger light vehicle and a bridge and support to both su-85 and katyusha opening. The tier itself was cheap but all its units apart from su-76 were really expensive. You needed that su-76 vs flamer halftruck, 222 spam, mg spam, it was effective even vs gren spam and it could patch lack of AT in T1. If a player decided to go only with su-85 he was swarmed with infantry and if he decided to go for katy first it was killed by german T3. So it was definitely not out of place.

It was also super usefull tool during blizzards. Right usage of su-76 in a blizzard could literaly turn the tide.

Then they raised cost of its arrival by half with cost nerfs to both the unit and the tier making it useless unless you already won a match...

I agree Su-76 is not able to be used as an impact unit like the T-70. With veterancy it has substantially more uses as the game goes on though.

I agree Su-76 is not able to be used as an impact unit like the T-70. With veterancy it has substantially more uses as the game goes on though.

Maybe but definitely not in 1v1 where hou have to hold every tiny bit of fuel tightly. You just need every unit to deal damage in its window of opportunity. And that unit has no window right now.

In team games where everything is stressless and casual it may be the other way round though, still even t-34s that are UP right now (definitely in team games, in 1v1 some may argue) are seen much more often.

If a player decided to go only with su-85 he was swarmed with infantry and if he decided to go for katy first it was killed by german T3. So it was definitely not out of place.

Then they raised cost of its arrival by half with cost nerfs to both the unit and the tier making it useless unless you already won a match...

The su-76 is the "best" of both worlds by being swarmed by infantry AND by being killed by Ost T3.

Doubt su-76m will ever cost dramatically cheaper, and it will take some miracle for Relic to fix bad teching design right.

All the things you could have used the su-76 to counter in the past have now either become countered by changes in units over time, or become inexistent, such as the 251 flamer and Axis HMG spam. Its cost doesnt fit its function and it is largely redundant.

Switching su-76 and t-70 is better than the current disgrace we have now... At least A tier being popular is some sort of win.

What is the SU-76? I had no idea it was in the game

I agree Su-76 is not able to be used as an impact unit like the T-70. With veterancy it has substantially more uses as the game goes on though.

I'd actually almost disagree as the T-70 with Veterancy becomes a map-hack assuming the map has any sort of open field and is still extremely dangerous against infantry. A vet 3 T-70 is a very valuable thing at any point of the game.

SU-76 with vet gets...

I mean I'm sure it gets something but I honestly couldn't tell you how it is better.

Let's look.

Unlocks the 'Tracking' ability

-25% barrage recharge, +16.7% damage, +30% accuracy

-25% reload, +25% rotation speed, +11.1% barrage range

Nothing really wrong with these. Fairly barrage focused which is not bad 'cuz barrage is one of the few good parts of the SU-76. 16.67% damage is like super... odd. 120 * 1.167 is 140 damage. 20 more damage per shot is just like... huh?

The only thing that would matter for that is like... 140*3 = 420 (lol) which is enough for the SU-76 to kill a StuG in three shots. StuG has better armor (SU-76 can fail to penetrate, StuG cannot) and damage to two-shot the SU-76 though so that's a losing battle no matter what.

400 hp on axis units is also shared by the Luchs PzII and the Puma. Those two units are at least somewhat popular, compared to the StuG, but the biggest issue is the OKW Panzerschreck turning the SU-76 into a liability.

SU-76 needs a health increase to 400, a damage increase to 160, and a cooldown reduction on Barrage. After that, it can be fine-tuned further if necessary.

The most pressing matter is the health though, it's extremely fragile to the point where it can not safely take on an Ostwind by itself.

I don't think the SU-76 is really that bad, it's a bit fragile sure but it's a decent mobile indirect fire platform that can also scare off a luch/flak.

I think the main issue is Soviets are spoiled with so many great arty pieces why should people bother to buy one when they can invest 400mp in a 120mm that will pay for itself three times over and squad wipe the entire game.

The above point is why it's so rare IMO