I dont know why people are always bringing up shocks. I think they are broken due to the fact they do have a high modelcount,armour and smoke.
I'd be totally fine if they had two of these traits. Likewise I would like to have two of these traits for evey close combat unit to help them scaling better into lategame and be much more potent in early/mid game.
LMGs damage is far too high in any event (on the other hand it is for axis the only choice. The 4 man squads for CQC squads is nuts and not having armour and high reinforcement costs further punishes the use of axis CQC infantry.)
If LMG damage is brought in line I suppose cqc squads are getting viable again. I forsee though that shocks need to loose their armour then. There is currently no real counter short of a Ostwind or Panzer IV to shocks since HMGs get smoked and other medium/shortrange infantry dies quickly to them.
Paratrooper Thompson
24 Mar 2015, 07:32 AM
#41
1 
Posts: 72
because USF nades are completely horrible and can easily be dodged by pretty much anyone.lol
24 Mar 2015, 07:52 AM
#42
Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2
I didn't say they were equivalent; only that they both have PPsH.
Assault Guards have better DPS close and mid range than regular guards, but not at long range thanks to DP's.
No idea why this statement is so triggering, I don't personally use Lend Lease often at all but acting like Assault Guards SVT's don't give them a mid range edge and PPsH's a close range edge is silly.
But please continue to say the opposite of what I actually said.
EDIT: And Again I'm not saying saying Ass Guards are very good at all, merely that they aren't total garbage like several people have implied.
1. They have slighly better close dps cause of ppsh (8-10dps higher at 0-6range) but from 10, Guards (without DP) are better than Assault Guards so how Asssault Guards can be better at mid range?
2. You said they are excellent
24 Mar 2015, 14:16 PM
#43
1 
Posts: 3052 | Subs: 15
I dont agree with this thread at all
3 rifles fighing in the center on a map like semoisky
with paras flanking around the side it deadly
i wiped 2 obers with one para squad once
I would like to see an armor buff come with the thomsons
they get forced away easily when focused
I have 3 cost reduction bullitens
thomsons cost 77 muni very deadly
Much flank
many focus Fire
most deadly
24 Mar 2015, 14:44 PM
#44
Posts: 2280 | Subs: 2
Permanently Banned
Much flank
many focus Fire
most deadly
for 77 muni
its defiantly the most cost effective infantry upgrade in-game
Flanking paras will cause mass retreats and win games
There is no recording in all WW2 history of a piat actually knocking off a vehicle. Yes, it was THAT bad.
24 Mar 2015, 14:51 PM
#45
Posts: 149
My favorite para tactic is to have 2 paras w/ lmg do the main assault and one Thompson paras come in on a flank and hopefully the wipe. I think the Thompsons are fine but that lmg are too effective. The grenadiers with a single one are fine. Obersoldaten are crazy. Double lmg rifles are crazy too. Paras with lmg and vet 2-3 are nuts as well. I don't know a solution without ruining lmg entirely.
PL#freeKatitofPL
24 Mar 2015, 14:54 PM
#46
Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1
1. They have slighly better close dps cause of ppsh (8-10dps higher at 0-6range) but from 10, Guards (without DP) are better than Assault Guards so how Asssault Guards can be better at mid range?
2. You said they are excellent
excellent =/= not total garbage.
Assault Guards would see more use if they were in a better doctrine, but as of now they are lack luster which doesn't help lend lease at all.
24 Mar 2015, 14:57 PM
#47
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
My favorite para tactic is to have 2 paras w/ lmg do the main assault and one Thompson paras come in on a flank and hopefully the wipe. I think the Thompsons are fine but that lmg are too effective. The grenadiers with a single one are fine. Obersoldaten are crazy. Double lmg rifles are crazy too. Paras with lmg and vet 2-3 are nuts as well. I don't know a solution without ruining lmg entirely.
At least allied LMGs are locked behind doctrines.
Against axis you'll inevitable get to the point where LMGs drop your models before you'll get in effective range, its specifically bad for soviets as conscripts are pretty much AT nades on legs that can cap in late game, USF can at least respond with paras or M1919 but still need to pay a hefty muni cost for that, premium cost compared to what ost or OKW pay.
excellent =/= not total garbage.
Assault Guards would see more use if they were in a better doctrine, but as of now they are lack luster which doesn't help lend lease at all.
No, they wouldn't, because they have no utility, no scalability, no survivability and no role that wouldn't be filled already by better performing troop or by more universal one for much lesser cost. Unless they suddenly became 0CP call-in, there is no reason to ever get them and the only reason you get them with lend lease doctrine is because you want M5 and went T4.
They are garbage no matter how you want to spin it. They have even less value then irregulars.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
24 Mar 2015, 15:00 PM
#48
Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2
excellent =/= not total garbage.
Assault Guards would see more use if they were in a better doctrine, but as of now they are lack luster which doesn't help lend lease at all.
I guess you missed that part:
Conscripts do exist late game, having an AT snare around is always extremely helpful, as is the ability to crew and reinforce weapon teams on the fly.
I agree that Cons need a better late game help instead of the PPsH but Shocks and Assault Guards are excellent.
But since you thought they have 6 ppsh, your next opinion (excellent into not total garbage) is understandable.
And Assault Guards would not be more useful in any doctrine. They are weak and they have no purpose.
Yet still, if I may ask you, check things before. It will save X post proving someone is wrong and unnecessary flame
24 Mar 2015, 15:12 PM
#49
Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1
At least allied LMGs are locked behind doctrines.
Against axis you'll inevitable get to the point where LMGs drop your models before you'll get in effective range, its specifically bad for soviets as conscripts are pretty much AT nades on legs that can cap in late game, USF can at least respond with paras or M1919 but still need to pay a hefty muni cost for that, premium cost compared to what ost or OKW pay.
No, they wouldn't, because they have no utility, no scalability, no survivability and no role that wouldn't be filled already by better performing troop or by more universal one for much lesser cost. Unless they suddenly became 0CP call-in, there is no reason to ever get them and the only reason you get them with lend lease doctrine is because you want M5 and went T4.
They are garbage no matter how you want to spin it. They have even less value then irregulars.
Their survivability is as good as the rest of the 6 men Soviet squads except shocks, while again; are the only infantry unit in the game that still has armor. They come with a HT as well which gives you one so if you went T4 you can still get a meat grinder and forward reinforcement point as you pointed out.
They are ~okay~, not terrible, not good/great. They still have the excellent guards grenade
And Assault Guards actually have better veterancy bonus's than regular guards.
Guards Rifle Infantry (Assault)
Unlocks the 'Trip Wire Flares' ability
-25% weapon cooldown, -29% received accuracy
+40% accuracy, +25% grenade range
Guards Rifle Infantry
Unlocks the 'Trip Wire Flares' ability
+10% penetration, +30% accuracy, -17% received accuracy
+30% duration of the 'button' ability, -20% weapon cooldown, -23% received accuracy
So at the end of the day you get 5% better weapon cool down, only 11% less received accuracy and 25% more range on your grenades and 10% better accuracy.
24 Mar 2015, 15:50 PM
#50
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
"Only 11% less received accuracy"
Are we really having this discussion? Are you that much detached from actual gameplay? Have you used them at least ONCE?
You are aware that we're talking CQC unit with zero mid/long range potential?
And inb4 you'll start defending them, check penal and shock dps curves, cut them in half and put them together into one. See how awesome they are.
Unit with low survivability(it can have 10 men, it will still have low survivability because of no REC ACC modifiers, no armor, no smoke and no sprint) and low dps is a BAD unit.
Ass grens are much better and scale actually like assault troop needs to.
Are we really having this discussion? Are you that much detached from actual gameplay? Have you used them at least ONCE?
You are aware that we're talking CQC unit with zero mid/long range potential?
And inb4 you'll start defending them, check penal and shock dps curves, cut them in half and put them together into one. See how awesome they are.
Unit with low survivability(it can have 10 men, it will still have low survivability because of no REC ACC modifiers, no armor, no smoke and no sprint) and low dps is a BAD unit.
Ass grens are much better and scale actually like assault troop needs to.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
24 Mar 2015, 15:55 PM
#51
Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1
"Only 11% less received accuracy"
Are we really having this discussion? Are you that much detached from actual gameplay? Have you used them at least ONCE?
You are aware that we're talking CQC unit with zero mid/long range potential?
And inb4 you'll start defending them, check penal and shock dps curves, cut them in half and put them together into one. See how awesome they are.
Unit with low survivability(it can have 10 men, it will still have low survivability because of no REC ACC modifiers, no armor, no smoke and no sprint) and low dps is a BAD unit.
Ass grens are much better and scale actually like assault troop needs to.
Iv used it a fair amount, and the HT is nice on it's own and the Assault Guards are fine for fighting enemy infantry in close up maps (which their are several of).
They are not some awesome unit I adore like shocks, but they get better offensive bonus's than regular guards because they are a more offense focused unit. They are not total garbage, it's just that Lend Lease as a whole isn't very in the meta because of the mediocre Dhsk and the fuel drop being expensive and not working thanks to Flak Defenses. The M4C is amaaaaaazing tho.
24 Mar 2015, 17:18 PM
#52
Posts: 1484
Para Thompsons are actually pretty effective for close quarter combat troops. I kind agree with posts above that they do tend to drop like flies in open maps. This upgrade is only viable in urban settings that is all. M191 is a MUST for any other maps to compete vs late game Obers and LMG Grens.
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24 Mar 2015, 19:10 PM
#53
1 Posts: 3052 | Subs: 15
for 77 muni
its defiantly the most cost effective infantry upgrade in-game
Flanking paras will cause mass retreats and win games
I think you missed the joke kappa
25 Mar 2015, 00:36 AM
#54
Posts: 1637
I think Paras with Thompsons are the right risk vs reward. More units should follow this type of Model.
Where there is actual RISK in the equation. Most other units/vehicles/buildings are more reward than risk.
Where there is actual RISK in the equation. Most other units/vehicles/buildings are more reward than risk.
The PTRS's are fine as they are. Whenever i'm up against Guard Infantry, I always have to be careful with my vehicles or the Guards will completely destroy them. Good range, good damage and fairly cheap; if anything, the PTRS should nerfed since it's ridiculously good for the price. Even in the hands of Conscripts, the PTRS's are extremely potent.
25 Mar 2015, 09:32 AM
#55
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
I think Paras with Thompsons are the right risk vs reward. More units should follow this type of Model.
Where there is actual RISK in the equation. Most other units/vehicles/buildings are more reward than risk.
Most do, but then there are LMGs obliterating everything.
USF LMG at least is more expensive and weaker then gren LMG, not to mention locked behind a doc.
There is little cover or los/shot blockers to use in later game to close up, so only shocks remain relevant while LMG squads are at their uncontested prime.
All LMGs(except DPs, they always sucked and probably will suck) still overperform in relation to every single upgrade and still everyone goes for LMGs when given a chance. 25% dps reduction across all ranges would go a long way.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
25 Mar 2015, 10:01 AM
#56
Posts: 1283 | Subs: 4
I think parathompers are my favorite unit in the game.
25 Mar 2015, 10:06 AM
#57
Posts: 2115 | Subs: 1
Thompsons have the highest close range dps in the game... and you want more?
servant to the vet 5 königskübel
b4 and soviet FHQ enthusiast
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b4 and soviet FHQ enthusiast
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25 Mar 2015, 10:07 AM
#58
Posts: 521
Thompsons have the highest close range dps in the game... and you want more?
Obviously not. The point of the thread is to investigate why people do not pick it often.
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25 Mar 2015, 10:14 AM
#59
Posts: 1604 | Subs: 3
Obviously not. The point of the thread is to investigate why people do not pick it often.
Because attack ground Lmg squads are easier to micro than flanking units. When I play USF, I usually get one m1919 and one Thompson squad, because combined arms are fun USF don't offer much.
If you need to know stats of certain unit: http://stat.coh2.hu
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25 Mar 2015, 10:14 AM
#60
Posts: 2115 | Subs: 1
Obviously not. The point of the thread is to investigate why people do not pick it often.
They dont pick it that often because LMG's are the better option 70% of the time, because of map design. But both options are very viable and i wouldnt change it at all.
servant to the vet 5 königskübel
b4 and soviet FHQ enthusiast
fan of the illustrious black prince
b4 and soviet FHQ enthusiast
fan of the illustrious black prince
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