"Cheer up, man" - IR Halftrack
At least it is useful when 4v4 turns into artyfest.
5-man irregulars, anyone?
Five man grenadier squads are exactly what Ostheer need.
- This thread is locked
11 Mar 2015, 12:00 PM
#21
Posts: 1605 | Subs: 1
At least it is useful when 4v4 turns into artyfest.
5-man irregulars, anyone?
11 Mar 2015, 12:28 PM
#22
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
"Cheer up, man" - IR Halftrack
I can find a use for IR HT and like to use it from time to time.
But everytime I use M-42 I want to go to the crew, hug them and tell them "everything will be alright, one day someone looks at you and says 'yes, I definitely NEED you RIGHT NOW and you won't cripple me in 5 minutes'".
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
11 Mar 2015, 12:36 PM
#23
10 
Posts: 4785 | Subs: 3
This. Giving Grenadiers a fith man would be the wrong approach because the problems with this faction lie elsewhere. The inability of the MG42 to supress, the sniper beeing knocked out by just looking at it, the lack of proper maps for Ostheer, the overpriced teching along with the usual bad early game for them, ...
I like the 4 man Grenadier squad. It actually feels a bit historically acurate and unique and makes infantry engagements very tactical as you have to care about each member, rather than just moving my blob of 5 model Volks forward. Ostheer is designed as a faction which relies heavily of combined arms and I'd like to keep it that way (in fact more factions should be like that).
I completely agree with that. The Grens are almost the only Unit of the Ostheer that needs nothing and is good as it is!
11 Mar 2015, 12:50 PM
#24
Posts: 2487 | Subs: 21
Five men gren squads are exactly what Pr0stheer does not need. Lets not turn this into a Total War game.
11 Mar 2015, 13:05 PM
#25
Posts: 322
Grens are not ostheers problem, Don't take the starcraft 2 route to 'balance'
Were they focused all the balance for Terran around the marine and made everything else suck to compensate.
Ost needs more options not less, Grens are tough enough already and scale
quite well as the game drags out.
Were they focused all the balance for Terran around the marine and made everything else suck to compensate.
Ost needs more options not less, Grens are tough enough already and scale
quite well as the game drags out.
11 Mar 2015, 13:20 PM
#26
1 Posts: 927
MG42, sniper, 222 and stugs need buffs. I would like stugs to have a better defined role than it has. I liked stugs in vcoh a lot more than in coh2. Fix tech costs and fix callin abuse and we have a solid faction. Relic make it happen.
11 Mar 2015, 13:28 PM
#27
Posts: 420
I will simply lol at anyone expecting such a change to a 2 year old general use infantry.
Equally possible are pershing for USF, IS-3 for soviets or ober nerf for OKW.
I have a new signature.
I will simply lol at anyone expecting such a change to a 2 year old general use infantry.
Equally possible are pershing for USF, IS-3 for soviets or ober nerf for OKW.
11 Mar 2015, 13:44 PM
#28
5 
Posts: 615
Ost have 99 problems but Grens ain't one
I was going to say that; Grens are one of the few Ost units in a pretty good place right now.
11 Mar 2015, 13:55 PM
#29
Posts: 1484
This. Giving Grenadiers a fith man would be the wrong approach because the problems with this faction lie elsewhere. The inability of the MG42 to supress, the sniper beeing knocked out by just looking at it, the lack of proper maps for Ostheer, the overpriced teching along with the usual bad early game for them, ...
I like the 4 man Grenadier squad. It actually feels a bit historically acurate and unique and makes infantry engagements very tactical as you have to care about each member, rather than just moving my blob of 5 model Volks forward. Ostheer is designed as a faction which relies heavily of combined arms and I'd like to keep it that way (in fact more factions should be like that).
Let the Gren blobbing begin! The 5th man in a Gren will not solve the problem at all even if you raise the price to 280mp. As you know, Whermacht is heavy on MP and Muni drain.
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11 Mar 2015, 14:34 PM
#30
Posts: 2742
I didn't actually change the costs or anything like that.
All I did was add the fifth man, which automatically increases the squad cost, as it is each entity in the squad the dictates the total cost. The entirely of the mod (thus far) is two values changed from 4 to 5.
In the mod I'm developing I completely reworked a number of issues, most of which are actually mentioned in this thread. Buffing MG42s, rebalancing small arms fire to accommodate changes, etc.
The second change I ever made in modding was making conscripts 7 man squads, so that they were capable of recrewing two weapon at a time.
Upping MG42 suppression is another excellent change though.
There are a lot of very simple changes that in my opinion greatly impact the game (for the better). At least with mod tools we don't necessarily have to be theoretical in how a change may or may not impact how the game feels. That's probably the real intent here for me.
All I did was add the fifth man, which automatically increases the squad cost, as it is each entity in the squad the dictates the total cost. The entirely of the mod (thus far) is two values changed from 4 to 5.
In the mod I'm developing I completely reworked a number of issues, most of which are actually mentioned in this thread. Buffing MG42s, rebalancing small arms fire to accommodate changes, etc.
The second change I ever made in modding was making conscripts 7 man squads, so that they were capable of recrewing two weapon at a time.
Upping MG42 suppression is another excellent change though.
There are a lot of very simple changes that in my opinion greatly impact the game (for the better). At least with mod tools we don't necessarily have to be theoretical in how a change may or may not impact how the game feels. That's probably the real intent here for me.
Strategic Territory Points Mod:
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=604491510
Classic resource points!
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=604491510
Classic resource points!
11 Mar 2015, 14:47 PM
#31
Posts: 81
This. Giving Grenadiers a fith man would be the wrong approach because the problems with this faction lie elsewhere. The inability of the MG42 to supress, the sniper beeing knocked out by just looking at it, the lack of proper maps for Ostheer, the overpriced teching along with the usual bad early game for them, ...
I like the 4 man Grenadier squad. It actually feels a bit historically acurate and unique and makes infantry engagements very tactical as you have to care about each member, rather than just moving my blob of 5 model Volks forward. Ostheer is designed as a faction which relies heavily of combined arms and I'd like to keep it that way (in fact more factions should be like that).
This.
Luvnest could not have put it any better, Increasing main infantry unit size will only promote noob axis blobers. Ostheer needs decreased teching costs, and a rework of the mg42 and sniper.
11 Mar 2015, 15:13 PM
#32
Posts: 1554 | Subs: 7
This. Giving Grenadiers a fith man would be the wrong approach because the problems with this faction lie elsewhere. The inability of the MG42 to supress, the sniper beeing knocked out by just looking at it, the lack of proper maps for Ostheer, the overpriced teching along with the usual bad early game for them, ...
I like the 4 man Grenadier squad. It actually feels a bit historically acurate and unique and makes infantry engagements very tactical as you have to care about each member, rather than just moving my blob of 5 model Volks forward. Ostheer is designed as a faction which relies heavily of combined arms and I'd like to keep it that way (in fact more factions should be like that).
+1
All problems of Ostheer in a nutshell.
What I want to add concerning overpriced teching: When I recall correctly, Relic has increased teching costs of both SU and OH in order to slow down the overall teching pace. They intended to give Early Game more time to develop and to delay mid/heavy armour. This patch was introduced in March, 25th 2014 in the times of vCoH2.
Now that we have Western Front Armies things have changed since both new factions can tech up faster, especially USF. And especially in the matchup OH vs USF this incongruity becomes evident. Due to not fixing this issue most OH players were forced into the meta we know: T1-> T2-> Tiger because teching was too expensive as well as inefficient since you only have to wait a few minutes to get out a Tiger before producing a Panzer IV.
"Nullum magnum ingenium sine mixtura dementiae fuit." - Lucius Annaeus Seneca
11 Mar 2015, 15:15 PM
#33
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
+1
All problems of Ostheer in a nutshell.
What I want to add concerning overpriced teching: When I recall correctly, Relic has increased teching costs of both SU and OH in order to slow down the overall teching pace. They intended to give Early Game more time to develop and to delay mid/heavy armour. This patch was introduced in March, 25th 2014 in the times of vCoH2.
Now that we have Western Front Armies things have changed since both new factions can tech up faster, especially USF. And especially in the matchup OH vs USF this incongruity becomes evident. Due to not fixing this issue most OH players were forced into the meta we know: T1-> T2-> Tiger because teching was too expensive as well as inefficient since you only have to wait a few minutes to get out a Tiger before producing a Panzer IV.
Actually OKW have the fastest teching in game, no competition to that.
Everything else is correct.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
11 Mar 2015, 15:28 PM
#34
Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1
Actually OKW have the fastest teching in game, no competition to that.
Everything else is correct.
Only because the first truck they get is free (and if they didn't get it for free Scout Car rush would win every time versus OKW).
USF tech's just as fast to T3 from t1 or t2.
11 Mar 2015, 15:37 PM
#35
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
Only because the first truck they get is free (and if they didn't get it for free Scout Car rush would win every time versus OKW).
USF tech's just as fast to T3 from t1 or t2.
But they do and nothing you say in the defense will change this fact.
OKW have fastest teching in game.
You can't argue that but I know you will anyway.
And no, USF tech isn't as fast.
Its faster then sov or Ost, but not as fast as OKW.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
11 Mar 2015, 15:41 PM
#36
Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1
But they do and nothing you say in the defense will change this fact.
OKW have fastest teching in game.
You can't argue that but I know you will anyway.
And no, USF tech isn't as fast.
Its faster then sov or Ost, but not as fast as OKW.
OKW techs the fastest from t0 to t1 or t2 because the first truck they get is free. USF techs faster to Major (t3) than OKW does from the Mechanized HQ or the BG HQ.
If you get a LT first than you can get a major before the OKW opponent gets a Schwer. But if you make a unit then obviously you wont, but if OKW makes a fuel costing unit and you don't you will get there faster.
11 Mar 2015, 15:42 PM
#37
Posts: 306
This. Giving Grenadiers a fith man would be the wrong approach because the problems with this faction lie elsewhere. The inability of the MG42 to supress, the sniper beeing knocked out by just looking at it, the lack of proper maps for Ostheer, the overpriced teching along with the usual bad early game for them, ...
I like the 4 man Grenadier squad. It actually feels a bit historically acurate and unique and makes infantry engagements very tactical as you have to care about each member, rather than just moving my blob of 5 model Volks forward. Ostheer is designed as a faction which relies heavily of combined arms and I'd like to keep it that way (in fact more factions should be like that).
There's really nothing tactical about getting a lucky RNG roll and having a gren die randomly and instantly lose you early game engagements because of that.
Although in higher level, the situation may be different, but the amount of player pain random RNG can cause to a 4 man gren squad is unparalleled to anything else. Adding a 5th man greatly improves the chance they have of doing something. Abet Whermact Tier 1 need changes to compenstate, the fact that AT guns are sometimes able to one shot your gren squads is utterly ridiculous (Scource: Cataclaw streams).
11 Mar 2015, 15:55 PM
#38
Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2
OKW techs the fastest from t0 to t1 or t2 because the first truck they get is free. USF techs faster to Major (t3) than OKW does from the Mechanized HQ or the BG HQ.
If you get a LT first than you can get a major before the OKW opponent gets a Schwer. But if you make a unit then obviously you wont, but if OKW makes a fuel costing unit and you don't you will get there faster.
Both Mjr and Schwerer can be deployed around 8-9min without M20, AA or Flak, Puma and assuming that both sides have fuel all the time, but once M20 or AA...
Sherman cab be deployed around 10-11. But again, it's a theory. More often you will get Sherman around 12-14min because of cut offs etc.
Point is, they are quite similar is speed of tech BUT once OKW launch muni->fuel we have a different story.
What's more, Major can be sometimes faster than Schwerer but whole tier will de dead for some time cause you need fuel to call anything.
Once Schwerer is up, you can insta call 1-2 Obers.
So they are similar, but Schwerer's units will be used earlier than Major's so in fact OKW is the fastest.
But if we look at the time when first truck is converted, let's say, 3min, not 4-5, then Schwerer will be faster than Major.
What's more, T1/T2 has no meaning for OKW while Lt/Cpt is a huge difference. If USF player goes for Cpt/Mjr then no doubt that Schwerer will be a way faster.
11 Mar 2015, 15:55 PM
#39
Posts: 670
OKW techs the fastest from t0 to t1
it's Wehr that techs the fastest from t0 to t1
If you get a LT first than you can get a major before the OKW opponent gets a Schwer. But if you make a unit then obviously you wont, but if OKW makes a fuel costing unit and you don't you will get there faster.
USF have to build something that cost fuel otherwise they go for an uphill battle
OKW can not give a flying about building anything that cost fuel, thus faster T3 in maaany games
I myself bought 14 OKW factions during a Steam sale last year for alt accounts
11 Mar 2015, 16:05 PM
#40
Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1
Point is, they are quite similar is speed of tech BUT once OKW launch muni->fuel we have a different story.
What's more, T1/T2 has no meaning for OKW while Lt/Cpt is a huge difference. If USF player goes for Cpt/Mjr then no doubt that Schwerer will be a way faster.
You never want to convert muni->fuel in anything smaller than 3's, and T1/T2 is a HUGE difference for OKW, considering your best counters to allied early game are in T2, and if you make a vehicle your teching is more delayed as OKW due to the reduced fuel income.
Obviously there a tone of different factors we could go all day on about, but who techs fastest really isn't the point, it's what each unit you can get from each building.
OKW needs Obers mid game, bad, especially if your opponent is blobbing, similarly USF needs the Sherman/Scott/Jackson bad.
OKW can not give a flying about building anything that cost fuel, thus faster T3 in maaany games
If your facing soviets you also have to go T2 and get a vehicle in order to counter scout cars,buildings, ect. OKW need vehicles just as much as any other faction when facing enemy infantry due to Volks blowing ass until they get vet 3.
But I digress, this thread is about Ostheer, not OKW.
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