Five man grenadier squads are exactly what Ostheer need.

Doesn't matter,dead men kill nothing.5 men means u don't lose 25% DPS with one member kiled and don't have to retreat at 2 dead.On top of all,no 1 shots of vet 3 infantry.

Ok, I for one will enjoy my US mgs and at guns being easier to keep alive.

Just remember that you are giving something up in return.

if you dont adjust the weapon damage, increasing squad size also increases damage output.

as it stands without any further adjustment a 5 man gren squad is worth 300 manpower.

Instead of buffing a unit that is already good, perhaps too good in it's current state with LMG upgrades. The underwhelming units should be buffed to promote combined arms instead of the LMG spam with PaKs stall for Tiger one trick strat.

if you dont adjust the weapon damage, increasing squad size also increases damage output.

as it stands without any further adjustment a 5 man gren squad is worth 300 manpower.

Instead of buffing a unit that is already good, perhaps too good in it's current state with LMG upgrades. The underwhelming units should be buffed to promote combined arms instead of the LMG spam with PaKs stall for Tiger one trick strat.

IpKai, may I ask when you last played OH? Because WFA and the last patches changed just about everything about Grens. Their main problem is simply their lack of staying power against both US/Sov infantry heavy strats in the early game, and lack of survivability throughout. Clumping+small squad size makes unit preservation more difficult with Grens than with any other baseline infantry.

Compared to any other faction, OH is already more dependant on unit synergies and combined arms, which also makes it more demanding to play.

Dunno if a fifth man would be a solution, however Grens are not exactly in a terrific spot right now, to say the least.

If ur most played is wehr then u should know saying moving is far easier than done,when 120 mm/pack howie,sherman etc lands suddenly in head.
U move ur grens u lose that infantry fight.U move shrecks pzgrens it can;t fire=useless,in fights they HAVE to stand still to be effective...there is no micro against 1 shotted bullshit.

Now answer the question DPS/HP ratio reamins same by reducing gren DPS on model,then conscripts balance earlygame is not moved..why is then there a obstacle to 5 men to remove 1 shot problem..or is it just that u are inherently anti axis,,,the general trend of ur posts.

I am anti OKW because this faction needs a major over haul and in team games Axis is EZ-mode. Only handful of Axis only players are asking for a 5man squad NOW (4 man Grens existed LONG ago). If you watch Luvnest's stream or any pro level streams, 5 man Grens is not the solution nor was it ever suggested.

Many members on purpose here want to keep ostheer weak and inefficient.Thus we hear the word 'fine' a lot applied to ost and its units,however when it comes to performance somehow this is not reflected.

So anyone who doesnt agree with you is guilty of some apparent conspiracy to keep Ostheer Weak? Yeah thanks but no cigar, and do you understand with these changes your practically going to recreate the same situation with USF where you have very powerful core infantry and nothing else to go on in the early game encouraging blobbing?

Lets lay off the drama, shall we? Among the people who actually play OH in 1v1, myself included (and I really suspect they are actually a tiny minority in this thread), the prevailing opinion of the vast majority is that it is the weakest faction atm, the stats concur.
If you play monofaction Allies teamgames, your perception of course might differ, but I would ask you just play 20 games automatch with OH in 1v1, and then come back.

I would ask you just play 20 games automatch with OH in 1v1, and then come back.

oh god no

They will rage and un-install

Lets lay off the drama, shall we? Among the people who actually play OH in 1v1, myself included (and I really suspect they are actually a tiny minority in this thread), the prevailing opinion of the vast majority is that it is the weakest faction atm, the stats concur.
If you play monofaction Allies teamgames, your perception of course might differ, but I would ask you just play 20 games automatch with OH in 1v1, and then come back.

Similarly, I would ask you to play 20 games as OH in anything but 1v1 and tell me they need buffs.

1v1 is the least played game mode, balancing to it means the least possible number of CoH2 players enjoyed a balanced experience. Why would we knowingly make the game worse for the majority

oh god no

They will rage and un-install

Its not like I would blame them. I am really not the irate type and god knows I am pissed after just 5 games.

Similarly, I would ask you to play 20 games as OH in anything but 1v1 and tell me they need buffs.

1v1 is the least played game mode, balancing to it means the least possible number of CoH2 players enjoyed a balanced experience. Why would we knowingly make the game worse for the majority

Used to be a heavy 2v2 player. OH is in a better spot there, but still very weak against double Soviets, even when paired with OKW.
Anything upwards, as far as I can judge, any Axis constellation is undoubtedly stronger. Accelerated teching and the corresponding irrelevancy of infantry will do that.

As to why "we" (Relic I guess) prioritises 1v1? I don't know, but I applaud it. The things that make the CoH franchise attrative to me just don't really come into play in larger teamgames. Positioning, flanking, unit preservation, army composition, etc. don't seem to matter to anywhere near the same degree. The lategame always seem to degenerate into an unmitigated heavy tank slugfest with all other units relegated to near irrelevancy, and with the advent of OKW that certainly favours the Axis teams.

I found ostheer ok vs soviets, pretty shitty vs USF however making Grenadiers better will just promote gren spam and doesn't address the issue of ostheer having pretty expensive tech and quite a lot of underwhelming units.

I found ostheer ok vs soviets, pretty shitty vs USF however making Grenadiers better will just promote gren spam and doesn't address the issue of ostheer having pretty expensive tech and quite a lot of underwhelming units.

On all maps other than Crossing/Langres OH is exceedingly vulnerable to Conspam. Conspam straight into call-ins is actually quite doable even at a high level unless your opponent goes Mech Assault.

I found ostheer ok vs soviets, pretty shitty vs USF however making Grenadiers better will just promote gren spam and doesn't address the issue of ostheer having pretty expensive tech and quite a lot of underwhelming units.

I agree. Reduce rifles' DPS at range, make obers purchase their LMG (and nerf its DPS too) to compensate, and grens will be in a fairly decent spot. The bigger problems for OKH are (in rough order) teching costs, HP on the 222, and the anemic suppression of the popcornsprayer 42.

Squad AI could use some tweaks to prevent bunching but that's something of a separate issue.

I am really (not) surprised at how much discussion about DPS is being done.

I've never understood the reliance on DPS for balance discussions because infantry combat that ever takes place in-game is going to be too small of a sample to make any applicable extrapolation.

DPS never takes into account things like LOS, unit flinching, cover modifiers, or unit rotation and movement behaviors. I don't think it can without proving the numbers to be meaningless or inconclusive.

However, this has been a particularly insightful thread that's given more straightforward feedback than most threads about balance. I would wager an improvement to the HMG42 is probably more warranted, but there are many more changes that need to be made for CoH2 players to enjoy a balanced game.

Man, I really wish it were possible to have multiple tuning packs active at the same time.

I may make up a simple "Increased suppression HMG42 mod" for people to tinker around with. HMG42s actually benefit a great deal by having their burst duration increased instead of actual suppression. (Though I personally prefer it to mimic the properties of the bunker mg42.)

There's absolutely nothing wrong with grens, and they scale just fine.

I just don't see where the reasoning for this even comes from. They are the most standard, basic unit of the Ostheer. Compared to conscripts, they scale much MUCH better, come with AT, AI / Weapon Team grenades, and a LMG upgrade. Conscripts scale awful unless you choose a doctrine with ppshs.

I just don't see why anyone thinks increasing squad size is a good idea. Nevermind that it will never, ever happen.

I don't think grens are the problem. Ostheer was built as a faction centered around combined arms and team weapons. On that front, the ostheer mortar is the best nondoctrinal option in the game, and the Pak-40 is the best mobile AT gun. The only thing that ostheer really needs in my opinion is a suppression boost to the mg42 and incendiary rounds at vet 0 for 20 mu. This way, ostheer has a valid counter to american early vehicles without having to fast tech and keep up. This in turn would allow ostheer to spend more of their early mp on squads instead of on teching.

The other thing that ostheer needs is an armor/hp buff to the 221 that would allow it to stand a little bit more of a chance against small arms, allowing it to be a solid counter to snipers.

One final change that is needed for ostheer is not directly an ostheer problem. I think that the Jackson should get a higher penetration value, lower damage (160), and maybe a slighly higher ROF. This way ostheer t3 is no longer hardcountered by jacksons, and medium counter play will become easier to pull off.

These are of course just my ideas, i'm sure others have better ones.

the problem with grens is they like to give each other piggy back rides.

fix the unit spacing and weird AI issues and things will sort themselves out.

5-man unkillable g-43 blobs is exactly what game needs.

No, no and no. While Ostheer almost desperately needs buff, it should be buff by anything else, but their core mechanic existed since forever. Grens could use pop cap reduction, health increase, lmg cost reduction or better vet (med kits anyone?). Mg 42 (all hmgs in general) gunners should be untargetable, till gunner is last man remaining, hmgs already in too weak spot thanks to molotovs thrown from suppression and screen-range rifle grenades. Sniper and 222 could use survivability buffs, and last but not least, each tier could cost 100mp less.

And for RNG god sake, nerf OKW.

I was watching Pepsi play CoH1 yesterday and was amazed at how squad entities were spread out.

I like people who are saying that ostheer is fine while they are requiring for OKW nerfing. It clearly results for everyone that has a trace of brains in their heads that such conceptions are aiming to nerf axis play as a whole, because the only chance of survival for ostheer in the "infamous" "team games" (soooooo favourable to axis by some opinions here) is to invest in OKW's economy.

If you guys are requiring OKW nerfs then you should agree that ostheer needs some buffs or else the balance will be off, again.