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Sturm pioneers are overpriced

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5 Mar 2015, 15:21 PM
#21
avatar of Mittens
Donator 11

Posts: 1276

Well you can make the unit cost less but they would only be a little better than a con squad. If u want cheaper units decrease its effectiveness to balance it out vs other starting infantry.
5 Mar 2015, 15:22 PM
#22
avatar of AchtAchter

Posts: 1604 | Subs: 3

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Mar 2015, 15:03 PMBurts
Keep in mind that a sturmpioneer with a sweeper repairs as fast as 2.5 engineers. It gets even faster at vet 2 and vet 4 i believe.


Afaik

sturmpio repair rate = (3.0 hp + 1 hp with upgrade)*1.33 at vet 2 = 5.32 hp
pio/sov eng/us vehicle crew = (1.6 hp)*1.625 at vet 2 = 2.6 hp (vehicle crew gets only 56 % repair speed)
Rear Ech/US assault eng = (2.0 hp)*1,5 at vet2 = 3 hp

Taking the popcap into account roughly equals 2 builder squads (10 popcap) = 1 Sturmpio squad ( 9 popcap)
5 Mar 2015, 15:41 PM
#23
avatar of Brachiaraidos

Posts: 627

What the hell.

They have four assault rifles. They clear buildings in seconds. They have mines, super wire, swappable sweepers, immense repair speed, drop med kits and even get a grenade with vet.

With one or two squads and appropriate volks support they are absolutely lethal. With a bit of vet they are 100% your best defence against shock troops too foolish to use smoke nades when they advance, as the range advantage means you can chew massive chunks of their HP off as they close in, just remember to park behind cover and let them come.

Sturmpios are fricking amazing.
5 Mar 2015, 15:54 PM
#24
avatar of __deleted__

Posts: 1225

What the hell.

They have four assault rifles. They clear buildings in seconds. They have mines, super wire, swappable sweepers, immense repair speed, drop med kits and even get a grenade with vet.

With one or two squads and appropriate volks support they are absolutely lethal. With a bit of vet they are 100% your best defence against shock troops too foolish to use smoke nades when they advance, as the range advantage means you can chew massive chunks of their HP off as they close in, just remember to park behind cover and let them come.

Sturmpios are fricking amazing.

Could you stop it already with this fanboyismo please, there is nothing "amazing" about Sturmpios, they certainly do not stand out as a unit. They are an excellent repair squad that performs fine at early game infantry combat but reinforces slowly and scales poorly which makes them unsuitable as a mainline infantry choice, but hey, they dont need to be after the first five minutes. Thats all there is to it. Sturmpios are not under any circumstances a cost-effective unit against Shocks.

Overall, the unit is in a decent spot.
5 Mar 2015, 15:59 PM
#25
avatar of Brachiaraidos

Posts: 627


Could you stop it already with this fanboyismo please, there is nothing "amazing" about Sturmpios, they certainly do not stand out as a unit. They are an excellent repair squad that performs fine at early game infantry combat but reinforces slowly and scales poorly which makes them unsuitable as a mainline infantry choice, but hey, they dont need to be after the first five minutes. Thats all there is to it. Sturmpios are not under any circumstances a cost-effective unit against Shocks.

Overall, the unit is in a decent spot.


Have you ever watched a shock squad try to advance through open ground through a sturmpio field of fire? It's a lot more damaging than you'd expect.

Seriously, though. Volks and their shrecks are a necessity, but that does not mean sturmpios aren't fantastic. Yes, they start to become less prominent as the game goes on, but they never stop being a massive threat. Flanking, building clearing, surprise garrisons, park them on retreat paths. Their DPS against is enormous and that's not something that changes.

I honestly love them. Yes, you can't use them as a battering ram like you would shock troops, but they never stop being a threat.

Not nerf worthy, just really really good at what they do.
5 Mar 2015, 16:07 PM
#26
avatar of Australian Magic

Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2

Someone siad they don't scale well?
- -46% received accuracy
- +60% accuracy

How bad is that?

Let's compare them to Paras, pure fighting unit.

- -29% received accuracy
- +25% accuracy.


3 men SP can deal with 6 men Paras with LMGs at close/mid range. Dont belive me? I posted replay and screen somewhere. Just need a time to find it.
5 Mar 2015, 16:08 PM
#27
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8


Could you stop it already with this fanboyismo please, there is nothing "amazing" about Sturmpios, they certainly do not stand out as a unit. They are an excellent repair squad that performs fine at early game infantry combat but reinforces slowly and scales poorly which makes them unsuitable as a mainline infantry choice, but hey, they dont need to be after the first five minutes. Thats all there is to it. Sturmpios are not under any circumstances a cost-effective unit against Shocks.

Overall, the unit is in a decent spot.

Sure there is nothing amazing about them.
That is if we conveniently forget about their amazing repair speed second to none in game by a LONG shot,
their amazing performance in relation to any other starting builder unit and their amazing concept of holstering sweeper to retain full combat potential as well as that sweeper boosting even more already vastly superior repair speed.

Other then that few amazing things about them I agree, nothing amazing at all.
5 Mar 2015, 16:11 PM
#28
avatar of ofield

Posts: 420

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Mar 2015, 14:30 PMBurts
OKW really does not need more buffs..


There are some okw units which could use a slight buff/overhaul, but sturmpios are certainly not one of them.
5 Mar 2015, 16:32 PM
#29
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1

Someone siad they don't scale well?
- -46% received accuracy
- +60% accuracy

How bad is that?

Let's compare them to Paras, pure fighting unit.

- -29% received accuracy
- +25% accuracy.


3 men SP can deal with 6 men Paras with LMGs at close/mid range. Dont belive me? I posted replay and screen somewhere. Just need a time to find it.


They are very, very hard to vet up because of the high cost of the unit and the fact it's not likely to ever shoot and kill anything that's more expensive than it.

They only infantry squads in the game that cost more on the allies sides are Shocks and Para's.


And the fact that the OKW sweeper is worse than the Soviet sweeper for ~reasons~ is one of the reasons that Demo charges are so bloody amazing, with how jittery the game is most OKW players won't notice the demo charge till they are on top of it or almost on top of it and then it's bye bye 320+ MP.

Want my advice? Reduce the amount of veterncy they need to get to Vet up so they scale better into mid game and keep the price the same.

5 Mar 2015, 16:35 PM
#30
avatar of Australian Magic

Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2

Hard to vet them? God... With such DPS is easy to vet them..






5 Mar 2015, 16:39 PM
#31
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1

DPS ain't shit for nothing when your A. Stupid easy to squad wipe because someone at relic unironically thought 4 man squads + bunching mechanics was a smart idea and B. Your shooting at less expensive infantry.


Why do you think Volks vet so fast huh? Because they will always be shooting at more expensive units.
Neo
5 Mar 2015, 16:42 PM
#32
avatar of Neo

Posts: 471

I read the thread title in expectation of a punchline. What are you talking about? Sturmpios are great and adequately priced too.
5 Mar 2015, 16:44 PM
#33
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1

The joke is that people who think 4 men squads + current pathing and bunching mechanics are fine are mentally unsound.
5 Mar 2015, 16:55 PM
#34
avatar of Brachiaraidos

Posts: 627

Vulnerability to explosive fire dependent on RNG does not make them any less lethal, their DPS any lower of their ability to wipe conscript squads in three second flat any less real.

Don't use them to lead the charge, and they vet up just fine. You start the game with them, they get plenty of time to murder in.
5 Mar 2015, 16:57 PM
#35
avatar of swiffy

Posts: 124

There's a trickiness at work here in my opinion. In the beginning of the game, sturmpios are most valuable in terms of their combat ability. At that point I believe their cost is justified. But as the game progresses and okw gets some vehicles (panther?), then I personally start to think of them as a utility unit.

It's difficult to muster the 320 for a unit that you mostly need to repair in the case that you lose your first sturmpio. I don't think I've made up my mind about this one yet.
5 Mar 2015, 17:02 PM
#36
avatar of JHeartless

Posts: 1637

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Mar 2015, 16:57 PMswiffy
There's a trickiness at work here in my opinion. In the beginning of the game, sturmpios are most valuable in terms of their combat ability. At that point I believe their cost is justified. But as the game progresses and okw gets some vehicles (panther?), then I personally start to think of them as a utility unit.

It's difficult to muster the 320 for a unit that you mostly need to repair in the case that you lose your first sturmpio. I don't think I've made up my mind about this one yet.


Which is why OKW have the option for a building that repairs too...

Sturmpios are fine. When used to their strengths they work great as early DPS and later as the best repair squad in the damn game.

I have used Sturmpios with repair kits to out repair damage from a Zis and 120MM for over 30 seconds while I rallied my infantry to repel the attack. The repair that they do is borderline retarded. They are seriously fine.

Otherwise if its such an issue make them just like Assault Engineers (read as weak) and lower their price and repair speed to mirror that.
5 Mar 2015, 17:11 PM
#37
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1

Vulnerability to explosive fire dependent on RNG does not make them any less lethal, their DPS any lower of their ability to wipe conscript squads in three second flat any less real.

Don't use them to lead the charge, and they vet up just fine. You start the game with them, they get plenty of time to murder in.


They don't vet up fast because they are almost always shooting less expensive units. It's math, not conjecture.
5 Mar 2015, 17:14 PM
#38
avatar of Specialka

Posts: 144



They don't vet up fast because they are almost always shooting less expensive units. It's math, not conjecture.


Yep, but they shoot a TONS of less expensive units, and faster than most of them, and since the start of the game.

Can't say the same for RE or CE for instance.
5 Mar 2015, 17:15 PM
#39
avatar of swiffy

Posts: 124

Which is why OKW have the option for a building that repairs too...

I'll rephrase that for you.

"And they also have a building to compliment the utility of the sturmpio." That's a good point but it isn't the "why" with respect to sturmpio cost.
5 Mar 2015, 17:18 PM
#40
avatar of braciszek

Posts: 2053

A sturmpio essentially does double the work of any other engineer and thus has the respective cost.
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