OKW manpower penalty?

I disagree. Having 66% munition back then could cost you a game if you were unlucky and lost your only Shrek early game, Kubel was bad, then was over buffed and then it was nerfed again but never to it's original stage. Today's Kubel is a much better unit then its first iteration. These days you can easily sustain using only Volks as your AT back then you had to use Pumas, Rocketens and mines to be able to survive early game. On the other hand Vet5 Puma was a pleasure to play with.

The kübel is only slighty different from its first iteration. The problem was that people never used it because everybody said it was crap, then it got buffed and people actually l2p how to use it.

The most significant change is that the range got increased from 35 to 40 while the arc of fire has been reduced from 45 to 30. In this way it can shoot before the enemy infantry shoots.

13 % munition income is hardly a difference... There was simply no meta when it WFA came out and for most players okw seemed tricky to play with.

The flak ht got buffed and helped to improve therefore the early game.

Just telling you that OKW hardly changed from when they were released, the munition was first changed from 66 % to 100 % and then back to 80 %. Sturmpios were changed from a mid ranged squad into a close combat squad and Kübel got overbuffed and then nerfed again.

I personally liked okw play in the alpha more, it was a faction where your focus was to deny map control of your enemy while you hold your 3 important territories. That was a really interesting way to play and it's sad that relic made okw like the other 3 factions instead of tweaking their original design.

And Obers were Nerfed. The T4 trucks range Pen and DPS increased. The Luchs went from a STs squad sitting on top of it taking no damage to an unholy AI death machine. The Panther went from an equal fuel amount of units being on par with it (per the Elbe Day changes) to being stupidly powerful again with its frontal armor restored, its Blitz returned and its Pen that it got to offset the armor nerf still intact.

Meanwhile alot of the USF easy win counters were nerfed as well (Cap isnt an insane AI unit with his Tommy, cant one hit trucks with offmaps, Easy 8 costs more etc etc)

I played OKW then like Oz but as soon as the Panther got his frontal armor back I just couldnt stomach it. Essentially Muni was given back allowing Shreks to be easily acquired and everything in T4 including the building itself now overperforms for cost. With the exception of Obers not by a huge amount but they all overperform.

So now T4 with the Medic truck is a no brainer. Between Volks and Obers with an Optional Luchs/Panther you have the best OKW has to offer in the AI/AT department. Much less risky because everything listed is much more durable then its peers and much more rewarding then any other OKW vehicle Tier.

Meanwhile with the Truck being what it is it allows OKW to hold down 25% of the Map from the USF until late game so OKW can blob without worrying about losing too much map control.

TLDR there are alot of changes that are fundamental to the current meta that you didnt identify.

I think it's OP Vet bonuses that make OKW infantry so potent.

If you look at Volks prior to Vet, they are the worst stock core infantry in the game, worse even than the current grens. (no AT snare, no non-doctrinal house clearing, mediocre grenade that you can't afford to use 'cause you're saving for AT, and poor game-long AI performance at all but the very, very far ranges).

No AT snare makes them exceptionally vulnerable early game; combine that with a less-than-mediocre Raketenwerfer and you've got yourself a Clown Car BBQ Drive Through invitation.

Giving them a shrek makes them even worse vs. infantry, except it allows them to vet up so fast that they become extremely difficult to wipe.

I don't have an issue with OKW infantry that survive a 50 minute game and have dozens of kills becoming very powerful but shreks allow Volks to get Vet5 way too fast, and the benefits of that are way too big right now.

My suggestion: increase Vet requirements for Vet4 and 5 for volks + slightly nerf Vet4-5 bonuses (particularly bonuses related to survivability).

So now T4 with the Medic truck is a no brainer. Between Volks and Obers with an Optional Luchs/Panther you have the best OKW has to offer in the AI/AT department. Much less risky because everything listed is much more durable then its peers and much more rewarding then any other OKW vehicle Tier.

Meanwhile with the Truck being what it is it allows OKW to hold down 25% of the Map from the USF until late game so OKW can blob without worrying about losing too much map control.

Just wait for Alexzander to tell you about amazing allied indirect fire like B4 or 120 which can stop any blob and wipe everything.

And for Kronosaurus to tell you that's so easy to kill T4 so in fact it does not hold anything since its so easy to destroy

Either give OKW support weapons (MG-34, mortars, paks) or a man power penalty.

Just wait for Alexzander to tell you about amazing allied indirect fire like B4 or 120 which can stop any blob and wipe everything.

And for Kronosaurus to tell you that's so easy to kill T4 so in fact it does not hold anything since its so easy to destroy

USF has access to the B4 in 1v1???!!!!!1111111

What is it in the Soviet Lend Lease to the USF commander?

Yeah I am waiting. T4 truck can be killed if you went AB and Captain and dedicate a blob and do all this prep work for 5 mins to protect AT guns and if it has no shot blockers and and and....

Fact is everything in that truck is bullshit now. I mean the Luchs I am fine with its AI buff because it was B A D before. Wasnt even worth building. All the shots would hit the ground. But its HPs werent adjusted to compensate nor its cost so now its just a BETTER T70 in everyway.

so now its just a BETTER T70 in everyway.

In every way including losing to a T70 in every engagement conceivable?

In every way including losing to a T70 in every engagement conceivable?

Its like ISU is better than Elephnat but will lose agasint it.
Or Sherman is better than Pz4 but will lose against Pz4

Its like ISU is better than Elephnat but will lose agasint it.
Or Sherman is better than Pz4 but will lose against Pz4

But the "Indirect" B4 tho...

Oh, do they?
Then applying 4v4 logic to 1v1, we need to greatly nerf OKW, greatly buff USF, buff a bit soviets and ost is perfectly fine faction with no problems at all and since you understand that, then I suppose you act as main OKW apologist exclusively for sports since following your logic, even you can't be that dumb to believe OKW is fine.

OKW is perfectly fine actually, in that it's a poorly designed faction which is par for the course in this game. Ostheer as been noted by almost every good player is the best designed, but preforms the worst because the other factions make exactly 0 sense design wise when facing off against each other.

As I have said before, in a competition of cheese the only faction that loses is Ostheer. USF, OKW, and Soviets are all insanely designed when compared to each other. The Vanilla factions should have gotten an overhaul when WFA came out to bring them up to par with the WFA factions.

Soviets have just managed to stay in the game because the entire faction is based around call in meta, so them having expensive teching doesn't really matter.

See above.


Claiming 4v4 balance is almost the same as 1v1 is just blunt stupid. All one need to do to see it is play few 1v1 AFTER ladder placement. That's why I made a disclaimer 1v1 only. Sure units are the same but the whole context is different. Even how you approach the map without buddy cover your arse is different.

In 1v1 OKW early game is really strong with Volks being your core, SP being your flanking unit and DMG dealer and Kubel being your ultra mobile suppression platform. This allows you to transition into early Luchs or Obers into Panther. Or open with some Pumas or ISG and then into Panther and Obers.

I played OKW early release when the were this very defensive early game faction that required micro and was very rewarding to play. Every Shreck counted, you were forced to utilise units like Puma or ISG and be careful not to over stretch your army. Now I can spam 4 Volks, 2 Obers and still float MP. For me that's an indication something is wrong.
Recent game I had a guy doing standard Volks spam opening, transitioning into Luchs. I got my T34 out almost at the same time but o couldn't use it because every time it was forced to retreat due to multiple shreck salvos. When I wanted to engage his Volks with infantry his Luchs was shredding my Cons from behind the lines, any T34 flank was imidietaly countered by Shrek salvos, all that while my mortars were constantly bleeding him out.Vet2 at 12 minutes mark. ZiS didn't work cos you need 3 shoots to deal with Luchs and SP repair is crazy so its back in action after few minutes.
I don't think you can beat equal skilled OKW player. I can beat a bad one, no at all but against one that's the same level you have no chance.

My solution is to allow OJW to remain its unique flavour of being this elite army (similar to Space Marines from DoW2) with few but powerful units otherwise they have to be redone. MP bleed can be adjusted so OKW won't be crippled.

You would have to literally never played against USF or a con spammer before to make the claim that Volks make your core early game very strong when Volks are the worst starting infantry in the game. They need three levels of vet before they start to out preform cons, which is going to be cold comfort for when shock troops/bar riflemen hit the field.

You keep putting OKW up on this giant monolith of unbeatableness and never ever admit that that it has very very obvious weakness's.

And still a way better penetration than 57mm. Raketens are amazing. And even if enemy is getting close, you can retreat and save the crew. On maps with buildings it can do wonders.

They are if you have trenches. They are absolute unmitigated garbage if you do not. I would rather have a 57mm AT gun that will actually hit the tank, even if it doesn't pen, than a Puppchen which will always just shoot the ground and get 1 shotted half a second later.

So now T4 with the Medic truck is a no brainer. Between Volks and Obers with an Optional Luchs/Panther you have the best OKW has to offer in the AI/AT department. Much less risky because everything listed is much more durable then its peers and much more rewarding then any other OKW vehicle Tier.

Nope, if your facing Soviets getting a medi truck is just going to give him the gift of a big fat target to center all his indirect on and then rape you with Scout Cars/Penals. The Mechanized HQ is a the absolute best choice when facing Soviets.

maybe okw should have mp income tied to mapcontrol instead while trucks can lockdown normal strat points again

interesting.. relic should just go balls out and drastically change that abomination so called faction. imo.

[...]You would have to literally never played against USF or a con spammer before to make the claim that Volks make your core early game very strong when Volks are the worst starting infantry in the game. They need three levels of vet before they start to out preform cons, which is going to be cold comfort for when shock troops/bar riflemen hit the field.

You keep putting OKW up on this giant monolith of unbeatableness and never ever admit that that it has very very obvious weakness's.



They are if you have trenches. They are absolute unmitigated garbage if you do not. I would rather have a 57mm AT gun that will actually hit the tank, even if it doesn't pen, than a Puppchen which will always just shoot the ground and get 1 shotted half a second later.



Nope, if your facing Soviets getting a medi truck is just going to give him the gift of a big fat target to center all his indirect on and then rape you with Scout Cars/Penals. The Mechanized HQ is a the absolute best choice when facing Soviets.

I played OKW when USF was basically walking mass of Rifles, supported by AA truck owning everything, allowing you win the game in 1st 10 minutes so cut the crap. When this faction was very rewarding and micro intensive.
Your 3v3 AT balance insight has nothing to offer here. From what you're writing you don't even have a solid grasp of OKW units except these few that over perform and are the cause for all balance problems this game has right now. Probably that's why you don't play 1v1 cos you had your arse owned.

Meh, OKW is fine design wise. I mean obviously it's not the best design but whatever.


It's just that volks vet needs to be toned down a litte, obers DPS and vet bonuses need to be toned down, and shwerer panzer HQ needs to not reliably penetrate allied mediums and not deny 1/3 of the map in 1v1.


But of course it can't be done right away because nerfing both volks and obers and the shwerer could easily make OKW too weak.


Then theres all the little things that need to be addresed

puma being too good, luchs being a bit too good, walking stuka being questionably good etc etc

Of course some units do need a buff raketenwerfer LEIG PIV battlegroup call in..

interesting.. relic should just go balls out and drastically change that abomination so called faction. imo.

The 200% income from truck points that were locked down was removed from a reason, it didn't work on every map and people would be livid if you could lock down a fuel from capture with a Schwer.

If I was to radically redesign OKW I would give all OKW squads a 5th man and adjust pricing accordingly. Remove the LMG 34 and give Obers StG 44's and a optional LMG upgrade for 90 muni. Sturms get a Foaust when you set down your first HQ, Volks have an optional AI upgrade of 3 StG 44's + cold protection for 90 muni if you don't want a shrek.

BG HQ has an AT gun you can make at it that's different from the Ost Pak 40, IR HT is moved to mechanized, ISG is either buffed or just removed from the game. All vehicles across the board get a 33% reduction in fuel cost but a 50% increase in MP cost, so the Panther is 735 MP but only 115 fuel, JP IV is 600 MP but only 85 fuel. That way as you take up pop cap your ability to make vehicles is drastically reduced due to lower MP income, this allows you to actually get tanks out the dor but it's actually hard to replace them.

Flak HT set up time is removed, it just needs to stop to fire. It has an optional lock down at 3 like the USF AA HT that extends it's range and makes it more effective against air craft, it would take several seconds to break the lock down and you couldn't use smoke while locked down either.

Puma is given an optional armor upgrade that increase health and armor, said upgrade removes the ability to use smoke and slows the Puma down.

Stuka Zu Fuss gets incendiary barrage at vet 3 instead of 4. It's reload time is reduced but it fires in a circle like it does with the incendiary barrage instead of a line. This way it's better against blobs and denying territory while still being an effective building counter, but a smart player will almost always be able to move out of the way of the barrage instead of having no win scenarios were your caught in an alley way/retreat path.

Once 2 HT are converted you can build static howitzers, but they have to be in a sector that you have converted an HT on but if the HQ dies the howitzer remains operational. So no building artillery in your own base that's proof from enemy fire. There are 3 tiers of howitzer each tied to a building:

In the BQ HQ sector you can create a LefH 105mm Howitzer, unit would cost 600 MP with a vet 3 ability that allows it to fire incendiary shells:



In the Mechanized HQ sector you can make a sFH 18 149mm Howitzer, unit would cost 700 MP with a vet 3 ability that allows it to fire directly at an enemy tank in LoS:



In the Schwer HQ sector you can make a 21 cm Nebelwerfer 42, unit would cost 500 MP and be capable of firing smoke barrages when you reach vet 1:



Sturmtiger give the ability to track again, and you can pay munitions to make it reload faster. PzII can enter scouting mode similar to the t70 allowing it to sight for itself at the cost of reduced speed and ROF. Panther's improved armor/health at vet 2 is removed, you can instead chose to upgrade it's armor for a set amount of munitions.

KT is special, it's fuel cost/mp cost remains the same but for every KT that hit's the field your fuel income is reduced by 33%. It's vet 1 blitz ability is removed and instead replaced with a vet 1 ability that drastically increases your ROF but comes with a long cool down and heavy munition cost.

Commander changes:

Fort remains mostly the same except the Pak43 has to be in an HQ sector (but will remain operational if the HQ is destroyed) and it takes the place of any artillery you could have built in that sector.

Luftwaffe has some major changes, instead of being a regular infantry doctrine this one focus's on using Germany's advanced air force. Fallsch no longer just pop out of buildings, they are para dropped in by plane. The final ability of this doctrine (12 CP) is a bomb strike call in were a Arado Ar 234 drops several bombs in a line, the plane cannot be shot down and the ability can be called in on an area with out vision Cost: 250 munitions. Replacing the MG34 is a early strafe similar to the close air support one. The advanced fortifications ability is replaced with a recon over flight. Valiant Assault is kept the same.

Spec Ops remains mostly the same, IR StG 44's take the place of the Ober LMG upgrade, Panther has armor/health upgrade like the regular ones does. Radio silence is removed and replaced with radio intercept but costs munitions and only lasts for a limited time.

Salvage is reworked. Ostwind call in is moved to 7 CP's and has the same MP increase and fuel reduction as the rest of the faction. Advanced Salvage now gives you the ability to either salvage for more fuel, MP, or munitions. Advanced Salvage is only capable of being preformed by Sturmpioneers. The 105 howitzer artillery call in is replaced with a on map buildable 35.5 cm Haubitze M1 Artillery piece that making disallows you for constructing any more howitzers that game. It could be only built in your Mechanized HQ center at 12 CP and it takes munitions to reload after each barrage. JLI remain the same.



Elite armored is entirely redone. At 2 CP it gets a Pgren in HT call in. At 4 CP your Sturms gain the ability to repair engine damage quickly for munitions similar to the USF crew ability. At 6 CP your tanks can detect enemy tanks at a distance out of LoS, the crew will note to you what weight class the tank is (light, medium, heavy) but not the specific type. At 10 CP for 210 fuel and 900 MP you can call in two PIV Ausf J tank aces (as in they are both vet 5), you fuel and MP income is reduced similar to the Tiger Ace call in.

Breakthrough remains mostly the same, the quick decap ability is moved to 2 CP and increases the speed of your infantry as well. Jadgtiger reduces your fuel income by 33% like a KT does, but other wise remains the same price as it did before. Breakthrough Officer is removed and replaced with a Artillery officer similar in form to the Ostheer one.

Well, that's my suggestion.

I played OKW when USF was basically walking mass of Rifles, supported by AA truck owning everything, allowing you win the game in 1st 10 minutes so cut the crap. When this faction was very rewarding and micro intensive.
Your 3v3 AT balance insight has nothing to offer here. From what you're writing you don't even have a solid grasp of OKW units except these few that over perform and are the cause for all balance problems this game has right now. Probably that's why you don't play 1v1 cos you had your arse owned.

Uh, well nothing has changed lol. AA HT can still easily keep out of range of shreks, and USF is still a walking mass of rifles.

Yeah but back then it was literately destroying everything.

In every way including losing to a T70 in every engagement conceivable?

Yes it can kill a Luchs. *slow clap*

Luchs is still better at the job of killing infantry and surviving AT and is cheaper thus better but you know that. Your just being a silly person!

Yeah but back then it was literately destroying everything.

It still does, USF is as bullshit as OKW is. Both are spam factions due to lack of options. One just has better late game, but until then it's USF dominance all day every day.

The solution here is a basic redesign, not just kicking the can down the road with small unit teaks and cost reductions.

If you can garner a general theme from my big effort post, it's that OKW should be stretched thin MP wise due to having actual things to spend MP on and not because of an arbitrary income reduction.

It still does, USF is as bullshit as OKW is. Both are spam factions due to lack of options. One just has better late game, but until then it's USF dominance all day every day.

The solution here is a basic redesign, not just kicking the can down the road with small unit teaks and cost reductions.

If you can garner a general theme from my big effort post, it's that OKW should be stretched thin MP wise due to having actual things to spend MP on and not because of an arbitrary income reduction.

Wow the USF must be winning ALOT in your game mode of choice. That great early game and all...Many games must be won! Since an early game advantage is ALWAYS better then a late game advantage! Ask anyone! Thus it should be reflected in their Win percentages in team game modes! Oh wait........

Wow the USF must be winning ALOT in your game mode of choice. That great early game and all...Many games must be won! Since an early game advantage is ALWAYS better then a late game advantage! Ask anyone! Thus it should be reflected in their Win percentages in team game modes! Oh wait........

In basically every competitive setting the win rate between OKW, Soviets, and USF is about the same with Ostheer falling behind. And unless you have found a way to alter time an early game advantage is typically better in a competitive match because the early game happens before the late game.

As Axis the burden is just to survive the early game push/rush, then things start to get interesting mid game were everyone is about equal in strength, then you enter the late game were axis is better. It's stupid design any way you slice it.

It should be Early Game Equal --> Mid Game Equal --> Late Game Equal

Not Allied Advantage --> Mid game equal --> Axis Advantage.