OKW manpower penalty?

"Fast PIV" is an oxymoron. And no, I almost never build more than a single Ober squad unless I absolutely have to.

You should try it. A single Obersoldaten squad is a threat. Three Obersoldaten squads are unbeatable by any amount of infantry.

You should try it. A single Obersoldaten squad is a threat. Three Obersoldaten squads are unbeatable by any amount of infantry.

Dedicated Anti Infantry Squad is hard to counter with infantry - what a surprise!

Likewise I could say "Three paks are unbeatable by any amount of SU85s"

Dedicated Anti Infantry Squad is hard to counter with infantry - what a surprise!

Likewise I could say "Three paks are unbeatable by any amount of SU85s"

And what are Shock Troopers if not dedicated anti-infantry? Or 4 squads of Rifles, costing only slightly less than 3 Obers? Do your 5 conscript/4 penal squads actually beat Obersoldaten under any situation, let alone consistently?

And what are Shock Troopers if not dedicated anti-infantry? Or 4 squads of Rifles, costing only slightly less than 3 Obers? Do your 5 conscript/4 penal squads actually beat Obersoldaten under any situation, let alone consistently?

Shock Troops beat Obers in their optimal range and any other infantry squad.
Mainline infantry is multi purpose, rifles can provide smoke, inflict engine damage, are cheap to reinforce when compared to elite infantry and are the units you use to cap and control the map.
Same goes for cons.

Penals with flamers are a threat to obers and if you have lucky crits you beat ober squads.

Obers come out at a time where you can have stuarts, t70s or even scotts on the field. If you try to counter them with infantry you are doing something wrong on purpose.

Para lmgs squads can stand up to obers, if you wanna try it try your blobfest in a test game. 3 paras vs 3 obers, I wonder what happens.

Shock Troops beat Obers in their optimal range and any other infantry squad.
Mainline infantry is multi purpose, rifles can provide smoke, inflict engine damage, are cheap to reinforce when compared to elite infantry and are the units you use to cap and control the map.
Same goes for cons.

Penals with flamers are a threat to obers and if you have lucky crits you beat ober squads.

Obers come out at a time where you can have stuarts, t70s or even scotts on the field. If you try to counter them with infantry you are doing something wrong on purpose.

Para lmgs squads can stand up to obers, if you wanna try it try your blobfest in a test game. 3 paras vs 3 obers, I wonder what happens.

I haven't actually seen Para blobs as often as I have seen Obersoldaten. I'll take your word for it that they are just as good as Obersoldaten, but they are still just as expensive (even if not to reinforce), they come with worse abilities, they need a munitions upgrade and they are doctrinal so I am not sure if it matters. Really, I have no argument on that front, I am terrible with USF no matter how many times I tried to make it work.

Shock Troopers can beat anyone in their optimal range, the problem with that is that optimal is the key word here. Their optimal range is fart sniffing range and it is easy to keep Shock Troopers away from that optimal range. And if they do get in that range somehow, you can still retreat. That is indeed giving up map control, but hardly that common in the first place when you can cut Shock Troops down at long range. All you need is the common sense to move away from their smoke grenades and maybe throw a grenade for good measure and Shocks and their great DPS is balanced by how you can avoid them easily. Their range is very short so they don't kill retreaters that didn't drag their feet too much either.

Obersoldaten death laser cannot be avoided. They also scale far better with veterancy and are less micro demanding.

The weapon has twice the DPS of MG42, and any unit that picks it up instantly becomes an action hero. Never got the chance to pick one up with veteran 3 Shock Troopers? (don't get the wrong idea, it was artillery that killed the Obers, Shocks can't do it unless the enemy isn't paying attention or unless you ambush them). Best infantry in the game.

Dedicated Anti Infantry Squad is hard to counter with infantry - what a surprise!

Likewise I could say "Three paks are unbeatable by any amount of SU85s"

And yet shocks are counterable by a pair of LMG grens or well landed 10 muni nades when they approach.

^ This

The weapon has twice the DPS of MG42, and any unit that picks it up instantly becomes an action hero. Never got the chance to pick one up with veteran 3 Shock Troopers? (don't get the wrong idea, it was artillery that killed the Obers, Shocks can't do it unless the enemy isn't paying attention or unless you ambush them). Best infantry in the game.

That's indeed a problem, I was a fan of the idea to give obers 2 lmgs (90 muni upgrade cost) which have the dps reduced by a half so the damage is distributed more equally.

I once had a jäger light infantry squad pick up a lmg34, ended up with over 100 kills, thanks to their awesome sniping ability.

And yet shocks are counterable by a pair of LMG grens or well landed 10 muni nades when they approach.

And obers lose to cons with ppsh / penals with flamers in close range or if they stay in a molotov or get wiped by a well landed nade, just like any other infantry squad ... your point?

Dude I just lost a gun battle in a 2 v 2. I had two paratrooper squads (1 with 1919 LMG), a REMF with BAR and two rifle squads (Vet 3).

We were firing and throwing grenades at Vet 5 obers (2 squads) standing in no cover ON A ROAD and we couldn't win. Grenades didn't scratch the MoFos.

Bring up a Scott and the Shrek-blob lurking nearby fucks it.

Frustrating, but the Ober / blobshrek synergy is very, very powerful.

That's indeed a problem, I was a fan of the idea to give obers 2 lmgs (90 muni upgrade cost) which have the dps reduced by a half so the damage is distributed more equally.

I once had a jäger light infantry squad pick up a lmg34, ended up with over 100 kills, thanks to their awesome sniping ability.



And obers lose to cons with ppsh / penals with flamers in close range or if they stay in a molotov or get wiped by a well landed nade, just like any other infantry squad ... your point?

Well, in my opinion, the ideal solution would be to tone it down to behave like a regular weapon, buff the rest of the squad to compensate for the DPS loss, so they scale worse wtih losses. And then, take away some of the dps/accuracy/whatever offensive stat you want and make it a cover bonus for them like Ostruppen.

My problem with Obersoldaten is that they combine their long range firepower with mobility. I wouldn't have a problem with the current firepower if they were limited to cover to be 100% effective, which is not the case. I can tell Relic intended the unit to be an elite long range infantry unit meant to hug cover to avoid expensive losses, which isn't what is happening right now.

Obers vs shocks are very situational

Seriously play
Soviet without cache, no tech then call in
Ostheer without cache, using Assgren doc, don't tech and call in

You have the same big dump of floating manpower.

if we gave the USF a sniper unit, they'd be able to bleed OKW effectivly, even with the %50 reduced accuracy...

snipers pls

if we gave the USF a sniper unit, they'd be able to bleed OKW effectivly, even with the %50 reduced accuracy...

snipers pls

NO

usf a scott

its basically a sniper and a mortar combined on wheels

NO

usf a scott

its basically a sniper and a mortar combined on wheels

cept it gets killed by 2 shreck hits

OP is right, the faction itself is not bad, the problem lies in numbers. OKW was designed as a faction that is weak in early game, micro intensive in mid game and powerfull in late game. Problem is that due to low cost of teching and units their infantry is super spammable making them, after usf, 2nd best early game faction and patching their micro intensive, light vehicle based mid game with no-micro blobs.

That's why mp income reduction can solve the problem. The other idea could be to increase population and upkeep cost o their infantry especially on volks and obers. Again units themselves are ok, their numbers is the problem.

You should try it. A single Obersoldaten squad is a threat. Three Obersoldaten squads are unbeatable by any amount of infantry.

No I won't because every player I ever fight that does it get's spanked because they get MP drained like crazy. Ober's are 4 man squad which makes them very weak to crush and indirect fire.

cept it gets killed by 2 shreck hits

It's one of the most mobile tanks in the game, it's very easy to keep it out of shrek range.

OP is right, the faction itself is not bad, the problem lies in numbers. OKW was designed as a faction that is weak in early game, micro intensive in mid game and powerfull in late game. Problem is that due to low cost of teching and units their infantry is super spammable making them, after usf, 2nd best early game faction and patching their micro intensive, light vehicle based mid game with no-micro blobs.

That's why mp income reduction can solve the problem. The other idea could be to increase population and upkeep cost o their infantry especially on volks and obers. Again units themselves are ok, their numbers is the problem.

A MP reduction would only make OKW piss easy to beat early game unless the HQ starting units got a buff. OKW should have never had a resource reduction of any type, the units should have simply cost more. But if we have to live in a world with the fuel penalty then the price of tanks should be reduced fuel wise but have a BIG increase in MP cost.

So the Panther might only be 140 fuel, but your paying 800 MP for it as well.

Yes, because the leading cause of death for infantry are indirect fire and crushes, and not other infantry with laserbeams of doom.

Yes, because the leading cause of death for infantry are indirect fire and crushes, and not other infantry with laserbeams of doom.

4 man squads being easy to wipe is one of the reasons Ober's without the MG34 are perfectly fine balance wise. I can understand why Ober's are as good as they are tho, especially with the existence of rifle/shock blobs.

But yes you are actually correct, indirect fire is and deaths due to enemy armor are probably the leading causes of death for OKW infantry.

Alexzandvar if you can't see that shrekblobs with obers is the problem, and that you can't crush the obers because of homing shreks then I can't really help you.