How DOTA became a successful esport

Very interesting, and I gotta agree with the others. CoH2 has a lot of potential, but the lack of progress is killing it. Three months for an upcoming bug fix update is not enough.

Btw, same story applies to CS:GO, very interesting development: http://steamcharts.com/app/730

I typed a lovely essay on this a little earlier, but my internet went out as I was editing and my responses to a few of you were lost. My main point was that I believe CoH2 is not as successful as the top DOTAs out there currently not because those DOTAs are "F2P", but because they are more accessible. What I mean by this is that the SysReqs are not as demanding as CoH2's, the learning curve isn't as high, it's a genre that's been around for a long while and that more people are generally interested in (While the CoH franchises' take on RTS is somewhat new), divisions and leagues to determine overall skill WITHIN the game etc. etc... I can go on. Saying that CoH2's shortfall in having the following that LoL and Dota2 have was that it is not F2P is silly. If CoH2 was F2P it still would not have the following those games have, because it just isn't as accessible.

I typed a lovely essay on this a little earlier, but my internet went out as I was editing and my responses to a few of you were lost. My main point was that I believe CoH2 is not as successful as the top DOTAs out there currently not because those DOTAs are "F2P", but because they are more accessible. What I mean by this is that the SysReqs are not as demanding as CoH2's, the learning curve isn't as high, it's a genre that's been around for a long while and that more people are generally interested in (While the CoH franchises' take on RTS is somewhat new), divisions and leagues to determine overall skill WITHIN the game etc. etc... I can go on. Saying that CoH2's shortfall in having the following that LoL and Dota2 have was that it is not F2P is silly. If CoH2 was F2P it still would not have the following those games have, because it just isn't as accessible.

F2p is significant portion of being "accessible" as a game......
Well of course SysReq are part of the equitation, but less influential.
Ohh and the learning curve. A debated subject.
Lets define it first: "The definition of a learning curve is the time and study that it takes to develop knowledge or skills relating to a particular subject or task."
As a person playing Dota for over 9 years and CoH franchise about 6, with extensive knowledge in both games mechanical structure and technical flow, I can safely say, Dota is more complex, hands down, the amount of strategical options, composition, item composition on heroes, the roles, making the right decisions at the right time and as a team, picks and bans, etc.
I understand you may see it as inferior because it looks easier at first glance, and that contributed to its success, not being actually easier. CoH2 is even made a bit more easier in terms of the learning curve than its predecessor, with streamlined statistical system.

i have some advice for the younger ones here: stick with the game you love

i was playing dota back in 2005-2008. i was pretty good, about to become recognized, maybe "signed" by one of the teams, but then i quit, cause i thought it was going nowhere and i was wasting my time. now look at what it became

yes, im a bitter old man


in terms of difficulty to master, id say both are about the same, with coh2 being a bit harder in the beginning due to having to control more stuff yourself

Most MOBAs also don't have very high hardware requirements and can run more or less flawlessly even on older or weaker computers, which allows them for a wider player base (and is less frustrating!).

Something that can't really be said about CoH2, which still has quite the performance issues even on high-end systems.

Some might argue that buying US forces does give you an advantage.

Then that is a balance issue, not a design issue.

Balance issue: USF is overpowered
Design issue: buying USF gives grenadiers +10% accuracy OR USF is designed to be overpowered on purpose.

No, but numerous times in the past DLC commanders have. Hell, DLC commanders still give major advantages. Just look at how often Fortifications was used as OKW in the most recent 1v1 tournament. Not to mention the abominations of old - Tiger Ace/Windustry.

If only you could trade in duplicate war spoils for new commanders... might finally fix the stupid DLC issues we've all complained about since day 0.

While I do not agree at all with Relic's DLC system or their warspoils system, this is an unfair comparison to make compared to Dota/Lol. Neither of those games have anything locked behind a paywall. Every champion is freely obtain(ed)(able) in Dota2, only cosmetics are purchased.

In League of Legends, you can choose to spend real money on champions. However, the pricing on the current champions is completely reasonable and something that a competitive player can easily attain simply through playing the game.

http://www.lolking.net/champions/

According to that chart (at the time of posting), in the top 10 champions;
4 champions priced at 4800
2 priced at 3150
2 priced at 6300
1 priced at 1350
1 priced at 450 (!!!) --> ~ 80-120 IP per game depending on time, win/lose, etc.

Stat boosts in the form of runes are IP only and CANNOT be purchased with real money.


Also, unless DLC commanders are designed to be overpowered, it is more of a balance issue than a design issue. Just nerf USF if it is OP. Failing to nerf USF simply because it comes in an expansion despite its oh-penis is a design issue.

Yes let's forget the million dollar tourney before it was even released and the fact that it was pushed hard by the most used digital distributor in the world.

It looks like DOTA became a thing because Ice Frog listen to the community. *Cough* *Cough*

Seriously though if COH2 wants to become big make the game free so we get a ton of new players. Invest more effort in creating customizable goods like skins so relic can make money and advertise like crazy so people know about the game. Another idea is to talk with other WW2 related games like WOT and such and do cross promoting. Come on it's been almost 2 years since COH2 came out and it's still a niche game. It deserves so much more...

IMO

Relic should separate COH2 MP from the SP development, i.e. COH2 needs a dedicated MP development team working to their own goals in parallel but on a different track than the SP development.

Not having to rely on SP content and with less developers submitting will reduce the bugs.

Buying in game currency to purchase new champions, however, does give you an advantage.

I think you're getting Dota (or Dota 2, anyway) confused with League of Legends. Like LEMON said, the only things to buy in Dota 2 are cosmetic. In League, you can buy heroes. In Dota 2, they're all available to everyone for free, all the time.
Also, the genre is called MOBA, not Dota. Dota is a game in the genre.

Also, I would totally buy an SNF announcer pack for COH2.

Relic even tried some stuff from more known games, like LoL or Dota.
Think back to the free commander rotation. Reminded me a lot of LoL.
Relic should make a F2P Multiplayer. They can still sell Singleplayer content as before.
I actually posted about it a while ago:

http://www.coh2.org/topic/24948/making-the-automatch-free-to-play/page/1#post_id225021

IMO

Relic should separate COH2 MP from the SP development, i.e. COH2 needs a dedicated MP development team working to their own goals in parallel but on a different track than the SP development.

Not having to rely on SP content and with less developers submitting will reduce the bugs.

would be nice but it ain't gonna happen.

interesting piece on smite

http://www.mcvuk.com/news/read/interview-stewart-chisam-president-of-hi-rez-studios-on-breaking-into-esports-with-smite/0144706

I always thought dota2 and lol were succesfull because they are designed for kids.

Tried both, lol looked a bit less childish but I couldnt play those games for more then a few hours...
It gave me a bizzare feeling to play with or against kids.

Coh2 is a bit more adultfriendly, but that means its playerbase will never become as huge, because adults have jobs, wifes/husbands , children, dogs , horses, motorbikes/cars.

The technical problems and balance issues just add up to those factors.

I always thought dota2 and lol were succesfull because they are designed for kids.

Tried both, lol looked a bit less childish but I couldnt play those games for more then a few hours...
It gave me a bizzare feeling to play with or against kids.

Coh2 is a bit more adultfriendly, but that means its playerbase will never become as huge, because adults have jobs, wifes/husbands , children, dogs , horses, motorbikes/cars.

The technical problems and balance issues just add up to those factors.

I think that is mainly because of the setting, WW2 doesn't appeal to children as much as fantasy. I know plenty of adults who play dota or lol.

imo the biggest problem is the playerbase, its just too low for an esport. the more players you have, the more views you get on streams, buzz marketing, etc. which leads to sponsors and at that point the esports thing gets going

most of the points in this thread explain pretty well, why the playerbase is so small:
-high system specs ( very important for non EU/USA market)
-balance
-not beginnerfriendly (especially matchmaking)
-DLC-clusterfuck
-RNG

most of this could be fixed, but it would require money.

@winterfeld:
making multiplayer f2p probably wouldnt be the right option, because most players would be roflstomped on their first tries and would never come back. but if they improved matchmaking this could work out.

overall, coh2 would be a great esport, its nice to look at and you can understand most of whats happening without any game knowledge. actually vcoh usf vs wehrmacht back at snf4 was beautiful (except snipers) and esportsworthy.

Making CoH2 multiplayer free to play at the very least is a brilliant idea. Have fun convincing Relic to wave goodbye to lost income though. I hate to be a negative Nancy but with the direction the game has headed in the past year or so Relic just seem to be trying to squeeze as much money out of the community as possible. Them giving something away for free is a long shot.