Remove Shreck from Volks

Yeah run your panther up to his b4 over a few mines and past all his AT guns and KV1's I'm sure that will end well for you. And if you run right into the cone of fire of the B4 it's bye bye Panther.

Stop trying to act like no counters in the game exist to Axis units when they are plentiful, A snared KT is so bloody slow that it's immensely easy to flank and or hit with a B4 shell or some other sort of artillery.

Why do I have to use B4 in every single game to counter KT and Panther as you say in numerous threads?

Because it's the best counter, why do I have to go Jaeger Armor or Luftwaffe supply to counter artillery? Why do I have to go elefant or Jadgtiger to counter the IS2? Why do I have to go air borne to counter Heavy Armor? The answer is, because that's how the game works at the moment.

Should this be changed? Yes I believe that 100%, but it doesn't mean counters in the game don't exist. And you don't need B4 to counter Panther, there are far more units that can do that. For instance 1 AT grenade and a AT gun for example

So I need to pick doctrine (B4) to counter non doctinal unit (KT)? Great design.

No one ever said it was good design, but Soviets at the current time are entirely based around picking your commanders right. OKW for instance, is based around picking what armor you build right.

Is any of the allied stuff you mentioned non doctrinal?
Its alright if you need doctrine to help you counter other doctrine.

Its bad balance if you need doctrine to counter stock units.

Because it's the best counter, why do I have to go Jaeger Armor or Luftwaffe supply to counter artillery? Why do I have to go elefant or Jadgtiger to counter the IS2? Why do I have to go air borne to counter Heavy Armor? The answer is, because that's how the game works at the moment.

Should this be changed? Yes I believe that 100%, but it doesn't mean counters in the game don't exist. And you don't need B4 to counter Panther, there are far more units that can do that. For instance 1 AT grenade and a AT gun for example



No one ever said it was good design, but Soviets at the current time are entirely based around picking your commanders right. OKW for instance, is based around picking what armor you build right.

You don't need Elephant or Jadgtiger to counter IS2.
I ve killed countless IS2s with Tiger + 2xPak40 or, my favourite way, Pak43.
You can counter on map arty with Stuka bomb but also with Spearhead doctrine or Stuka zu fuss.

Also you don't need to counter Arty in every game but you have to counter heavy units.

Is any of the allied stuff you mentioned non doctrinal?
Its alright if you need doctrine to help you counter other doctrine.

Its bad balance if you need doctrine to counter stock units.

It's not bad balance, it's poor game design. Soviets being based around commanders means that you have to put a lot more reliance on commanders, that's how the faction is designed. OKW is designed with the idea that the commanders fill "gaps" in OKW's unit list, for instance infantry/mediums/AT guns.

If you want balance to be less wonky then the entirety of the commander system is dumb since there will always be shit commanders and there will always be over preforming commanders.

And the whole point behind getting a Elefant to deal with IS2's is you also get some quite good abilities in the doctrines the Elefant is in. Jaeger Armor is one of the best Ostheer commanders in the game at the moment.

The Flak HT is good at what it does. Killing inf.

The AAHT has another role, killing light Vehicle and suppressing inf.

And again, the Puma is not fighting P4 or Panther, isn't it?

The puma is overpowered for its cost, deal with it.

Your full of shit. the dps of the usf track is way higher then the okw track if less bursty. and mobile suppression is way better survivability . and unlike you im not on the srub level where people cannot use target ground ability to avoid smoke.

The puma is not fighting panthers. it is fighting 85's e8 kv1 and is2. do not pretend that the allies lack quality medium and heavy armour. You need to deal with the fact that shreks in the current state is never going to be changed . so l2p i say.

You need to deal with the fact that shreks in the current state is never going to be changed.

I doubt that you're in the position to say what's going to get changed and what not.

All this theorycrafting about whether shrecks could be removed from Volks is pointless anyway.

Nobody knows whether relic is going to change something or not.

It's very likely that relic won't do it, I also doubt that relic will even test these changes.

All I can say is that shrecks could be removed from Volks if OKW got a reliable AT gun, Pzfausts and AI upgrades for Volks.

I'd be happy if relic tested these changes with the alpha test group. If they then say "no, it doesn't work", fine.

I just killed full health IS2 with 3 Volks squads...

Insane..

I just killed full health IS2 with 3 Volks squads...

Insane..

The player must have been either the most unlucky sod ever, or he had soup for brains.

I doubt that you're in the position to say what's going to get changed and what not.

All this theorycrafting about whether shrecks could be removed from Volks is pointless anyway.

Nobody knows whether relic is going to change something or not.

It's very likely that relic won't do it, I also doubt that relic will even test these changes.

All I can say is that shrecks could be removed from Volks if OKW got a reliable AT gun, Pzfausts and AI upgrades for Volks.

I'd be happy if relic tested these changes with the alpha test group. If they then say "no, it doesn't work", fine.

Relic themselves have said the reason they aren't removing Shreks from volks is that why they have them goes beyond lack of a good AT gun. The soonest reliable counter to enemy tanks you can get out is the Jadgpanzer assuming you went battlegroup HQ.

I'm all in favor of taking shreks away if we can get some changes to OKW's structure overall, for instance reduction of the fuel cost of vehicles with an increase in the manpower cost and giving Volks/Obers/Sturms some more varied and interesting upgrades.

The player must have been either the most unlucky sod ever, or he had soup for brains.



Relic themselves have said the reason they aren't removing Shreks from volks is that why they have them goes beyond lack of a good AT gun. The soonest reliable counter to enemy tanks you can get out is the Jadgpanzer assuming you went battlegroup HQ.

I'm all in favor of taking shreks away if we can get some changes to OKW's structure overall, for instance reduction of the fuel cost of vehicles with an increase in the manpower cost and giving Volks/Obers/Sturms some more varied and interesting upgrades.

King Tiger is the root of all problems here. Why? Allow me to explain.

In CoH1, Panzer Elite had strong and versatile infantry and decent but not sustainable vehicle support. For that, they got to call-in a pair of Panthers for only 1000 MP, once all upgrades have been recieved. That was their endgame and it worked fine. They didn't even require fuel so you could keep buying your regular tanks; if you could afford the manpower. This was usually not the case, as why bother with a Marder II when you can get Panthers for so cheap, or resupply your expensive and strong infantry?

In CoH2, there is a similar thing. You save up your resources; which you can because of your amazingly strong and versatile infantry, and skipping all of your totally optional vehicles that you don't need for anything else besides trying to advance and cause losses, and your endgame goal is a heavy call-in. However, the King Tiger is no Panther. Besides the fact that OKW can already call in Panthers, King Tiger has far more survivability, and has an extremely powerful gun that makes it all but unapproachable by infantry. It takes an inordinate amount of units and effort to kill. Sure, 4 T-34/85s can kill an unsupported King Tiger easily, and maybe even 2 if you don't get hit, but chances are that won't happen, you'll lose a few tanks to the KT's support, it'll blitz away at 15% health and you'll be forced to withdraw and look for other options, that's the more likely scenario.

The call-in Panthers couldn't do that. They were great AT at no fuel cost and decent protection, but that was all they were. King Tiger maintains the ability to skip your vehicles but adds far more survivability and a gun that slays infantry. The fact that it costs fuel means nothing besides you have the luxury of just perpetually saving for more and more KTs, skipping everything in between. And no, beating well used and protected KTs in groups is bordering impossibility, and however rare they are, and will always deal more damage than they costed.

Panther didn't let you make it your only vehicle you built because it had its limitations. KT has slow turret turn speed shared by every tank, and that's it. Negligible if it's not alone.

As for removing Schrecks from Volks, the cost is fine, except Panzerschreck should have always been a doctrinal upgrade. But it's too late for that I believe. Maybe you can move it to Sturmpioneers, and while it does make them PzGrenadier 2.0, it does fix many problems associated with giving Volks Panzerschrecks.

Giving Sturms 2 shreks isn't going to make shreks any less of a problem, you will have a starting unit with them. You could give a totally new OKW starting unit shreks and the same issue would exist.

The reason the shrek exists for OKW early game is that OKW specifically lacks fuel based AT, that's it. There isn't some out the ass complicated justification for shreks existing on a starting unit, it's clear as day. The first dedicated anti armor platform you can build is at a 135 fuel at reduced income from a HQ you need to build. And making said anti armor platform robs you of other options.

KT isn't the root of OKW's problems, it's just exacerbated by the fact that you don't have much between the starting units and a KT that you need to build or can build. Most games a OKW player will be forced to spend fuel in order to say alive, and they will have to spend it wisely. The whole saving and delaying for a KT puts OKW in a hard spot because they will be lacking vehicle platforms to counter the numerous mediums and other vehicles allies can produce.

As long as the fuel penalty exists people will always be extremely picky with what they make, and they will make game winners not game changers, get what I'm saying?

Unless Relic wants to do something akin to making US indirect fire not suck (hint: Make RES not suck, make rifle grenades an upgrade rather than something they get in defensive positions) they need to do something pretty solidly against the OKW.


I'd say cap off tier 0 units (king tiger isn't tier 0, keep your pants on) at vet 3 rather than vet 5. As is your generic light infantry unit that's supposed to be cobbled together between wounded war vets, old men, and kids (who are conspicuously missing the automatic weaponry that made the divisions famous, but somehow also botched it where AT squads and general squads were two separate entities) are actually a bit more durable than US riflemen squads, and it gets worse when you factor in unpredictable assault grenades.


And I'd pull the cold weather immunity because it's bordering on racist. Does Relic not think Russians were unaware of jackets? Or are they assuming the volksgrenadiers hump that panzershrek across the field? Just because it was called a stove pipe doesn't meant they literally used it as one. At least it kind of makes sense with the Americans since at the onset of the bulge they WERE ill prepared.

Your full of shit. the dps of the usf track is way higher then the okw track if less bursty. and mobile suppression is way better survivability . and unlike you im not on the srub level where people cannot use target ground ability to avoid smoke.

The puma is not fighting panthers. it is fighting 85's e8 kv1 and is2. do not pretend that the allies lack quality medium and heavy armour. You need to deal with the fact that shreks in the current state is never going to be changed . so l2p i say.

You are the one full of shit .

The puma is not fighting IS2etc... Why? because, by the time,, is 2 is out, you have either a Panther or a Tiger.

And, I never said that the dps of the Flak HT was higher than the AAHT against light vehicle. But against Inf the FlakHT is far better. Because the AAHT must show its back and you forget the shitty pathing.

And since we still haven't see you playercard or a replay from you, we still believe you are a scrub, whatever you say

And for the record, all the quality medium and heavy armor you said are doctrinal, which means Allies are stuck with a reduce number of commander to get decent armor, how fair is that?

Giving Sturms 2 shreks isn't going to make shreks any less of a problem, you will have a starting unit with them. You could give a totally new OKW starting unit shreks and the same issue would exist.

The reason the shrek exists for OKW early game is that OKW specifically lacks fuel based AT, that's it. There isn't some out the ass complicated justification for shreks existing on a starting unit, it's clear as day. The first dedicated anti armor platform you can build is at a 135 fuel at reduced income from a HQ you need to build. And making said anti armor platform robs you of other options.

KT isn't the root of OKW's problems, it's just exacerbated by the fact that you don't have much between the starting units and a KT that you need to build or can build. Most games a OKW player will be forced to spend fuel in order to say alive, and they will have to spend it wisely. The whole saving and delaying for a KT puts OKW in a hard spot because they will be lacking vehicle platforms to counter the numerous mediums and other vehicles allies can produce.

As long as the fuel penalty exists people will always be extremely picky with what they make, and they will make game winners not game changers, get what I'm saying?

Yes it is, because it will stop blobs.

I though that Puma is cheaper than Jadgpanzer so why you sau that first unit is Jadgpanzer?
Puma can hit the field in less than one minute after M20 so what's the problem?
Not to mention that in 1v1 Jadgpanzer can hit the field in 10-12min to fight against Sherman/T34 so where is this lower fuel income and lack of AT?

KT is the problem. This unit should be doctrinal. It's like giving SU non-doc IS2 after 3 tiers so you can pick up doctrine with B4 and combne it with IS2, sounds OP?

Now, since OKW is floating with manpowerm it's not big deal to make KT and cover it with Pak43.
I did it countless times. I even help my enemy to flank my KT so my Pak43 can snipe his tanks.
KT+Pak43 - the biggest OPness.
Let's wait for a OST doctrine with Pak43 and Tiger Ace, it would be excatly the same.

By this logic, vCOH US vet 3 Rifles after SY level 2 should having 60 reinforcing cost, since they are super terminators and US having unlimited manpower at that stage.

Then volk starting price should be adjusted.

270 like penals

^ Yeah, only if they have 5 G43 and they actually know how to shoot
DAFUG are you smoking, Volks AI is BAD, they even lose to Cons in all engagement.

And the guy who said USF indirect fire sucks, I dunno what games was he actually playing, neglecting Walking Stuka USF have the best squad wiping indirect fire machine.

^ Yeah, only if they have 5 G43 and they actually know how to shoot
DAFUG are you smoking, Volks AI is BAD, they even lose to Cons in all engagement.

And the guy who said USF indirect fire sucks, I dunno what games was he actually playing, neglecting Walking Stuka USF have the best squad wiping indirect fire machine.

nope.

^ Yeah, only if they have 5 G43 and they actually know how to shoot
DAFUG are you smoking, Volks AI is BAD, they even lose to Cons in all engagement.

And the guy who said USF indirect fire sucks, I dunno what games was he actually playing, neglecting Walking Stuka USF have the best squad wiping indirect fire machine.

That's weird since Volks have higher DPS at long range.

That's weird since Volks have higher DPS at long range.

Biggest lie and worst game design in COH2.
Yeah yeah, better DPS at long range, worse DPS at short. ROFL, the Allies must be high enough to engagment Gren and Volks at longest range in every engagment, FFS.

Squad skirmish win/lose should depends on cover and positioning, not this kind of nonsense, it just automatically making the short range infantry win because there are so many CQB-ish map design.

You are the one full of shit .

The puma is not fighting IS2etc... Why? because, by the time,, is 2 is out, you have either a Panther or a Tiger.

And, I never said that the dps of the Flak HT was higher than the AAHT against light vehicle. But against Inf the FlakHT is far better. Because the AAHT must show its back and you forget the shitty pathing.


And for the record, all the quality medium and heavy armor you said are doctrinal, which means Allies are stuck with a reduce number of commander to get decent armor, how fair is that?

1. how current meta works when you have puma and finally have a panther you face 2 is-2

2. Shitty pathing is your problem use the reverse button. and really your best argument is the rear armour? let me tell you this it has 320 hp and 5.5 rear armour similar to the m3 fronts armour and it suppresses any infantry. the aa track really isnt concerned about bullet fire.


3, while doctrinal its still a valid option. in fact the soviets are based around callins and the 85 and e8 are the best medium tanks in the game with enough penetration to be really a threat to even the german heavies.