Truesight

I posted this over on Gamereplays, but it hasn't garnered any answers. Can anyone here pipe up?

So Truesight.

I was a little wary of it initially - would it be a good idea? Would it play well?

Certainly there was the natural concern of something being new in general. Humans don't like change, we're creatures of habit.

After a few games, I think I quite like it; I'm starting to get used to the shading differences on the maps, and starting to be able to recognise it and look for it in the heat of the moment - it also has some really obvious benefits, for example: attack ground from a schreck squad for instance, will throw up a cloud of debris, obscuring truesight for a few precious moments.

So, for those more experienced players, some questions:

Does elevation of your troops extend truesight? I.e. if in the 1st floor (2nd floor for European/Us peeps), can they see further?

Also, which weapons have a greater range than an unassisted unit's truesight? In CoH1, the sniper was generally more effective if you had another unit closer to the enemy than the sniper - same is true in CoH2. Does this carry for other units too? MG teams? Do mortars get more accurate if truesight is extended? Or does it even work like this at all?

Buildings do grant you an increased sight radius.

Edit

Also, which weapons have a greater range than an unassisted unit's truesight? In CoH1, the sniper was generlly more effective if you had another unit closer to the enemy than the sniper - same is true in CoH2. Does this carry for other units too? MG teams? Do mortars get more accurate if truesight is extended? Or does it even work like this at all?

The units that benefit most from "spotters" are typically support units - artillery (including mortars), AT guns, tank destroyers, snipers, etc.

There's no accuracy bonus though. It's just that many units' firing ranges go far beyond their vision range. Late-game armor especially. It's very wise to use this to their advantage.

The taller the build = the better the sight range. In addition, taller buildings can see over certain objects. Two story buildings can see over high walls and one story buildings, three story buildings can see over two-story, etc.

Honestly, I think True-sight was the only feature we added in and after playing one or two games, we were like "Yup - this works" .

True sight makes watching and playing games so much more fun. Not only is it hilarious to have two infantry squads on opposite sides of a building that don't know the other one is there, but on maps like Moscow or Oka, you can sneak a unit into the church without the enemy knowing you're coming.

As Toppins said, true sight doesn't affect accuracy. However, units like snipers can't shoot through a building because you have vision of the enemy from another squad. Each unit has its own independent true sight, so while having spotter units is important, it's also important to set up your units so that they can make use of the extended sight without being blocked by buildings/walls/debris.

The great thing about true sight is that it makes smoke much more useful. Now units behind smoke would take no damage since no-one fires at something they can't see. The bad thing about true sight is that ostheer tanks can pop smoke. I once wondered why my guard squads weren't firing at a smoke tank and clicked on the tank madly only for all 6 men to run into the tank's treads /facepalm.

Cheers fellows - sounds like truesight works as intended, and also better still works logically. Good work.

Not quite - if a unit has vision of another unit, then they fire like they did in the original CoH, that is, through cover that would normally block the line of sight. So technically true sight works like you would expect, but the rest of the game doesn't follow true sight. I remember a squad hiding behind the wreck of a tank, but then two of the squad members poked out on either side, giving the squad vision of an enemy, so then the whole squad opened up on the enemy, shooting through the tank.

I love True Sight, but it creates some strange situations. The fact that you "see" units that fire at you from within the fog of war complicates things quite a bit. First let me say that I very much like that you temporarily see the units that are killing you (i.e.:a long range tank, a mortar, or an on-map howie), and I think that mechanic is fine just how it is. Players need feedback about what's going on.

When we "see" an enemy unit, all of our units see it too, and if the enemy is within range, our units will fire upon it. This can create some crazy exchanges between units that are out of each other's Line-of-Sight shooting back and forth at one another after something initially triggers the exchange.

It can also create situations where you absolutely don't want your high value units to fire at low value targets. I drew a picture to try to explain:



Say you're commanding the Russians and you just backed your T-34 out of an engagement with a German Panther. You're down to low health, one more shot from the Panther and you're dead. You've gotten out of his L-O-S, but you're not yet out of his range. To your right, there is an infantry engagement -- some Conscripts are fighting some Pioneers. The Pioneers are within range of your main cannon, but you are not within their L-O-S. The Pioneers cannot see the T-34.

If your T-34 fires at the Pioneers, it will reveal itself and the Panther will kill it. This is why I'd like to see a hold-fire button on ALL vehicles in COH2. This situation happens even more frequently in Blizzards when all units Sight range is drastically decreased.

Oh, I thought the Panzer would be unable to fire, since the T34 isnt in vision range of any enemy unit.

If the T-34 fires at the Pioneers, it "reveals itself" temporarily to all German units. The Panther will fire at this moment and that will be lights out for your tank.

It's also kinda sucky in situations where one player is working to extend his LOS, but the other isn't. Say an Elephant and an ISU-152 are sitting just within each other's max range (practically two screenfuls). The Russian player maneuvers a sniper into spotting position, cloaked on hold-fire. Thanks to the Sniper's spotting, the ISU-152 fires on the Elephant. But because of this mechanic, the Elephant fires back, pretty much negating the work done by the Russian player and his sniper.

Just use attack ground

Yeah no kidding, I saw players attacking ground, but that's a really crappy solution. It often gets your turret pointing the wrong way, and the sound also alerts the enemy to your position.

If the T-34 attacks ground and it damages the pios, would that light it up on the minimap?

If the T-34 attacks ground and it damages the pios, would that light it up on the minimap?

I'm pretty sure it would, actually.

Honestly, I think True-sight was the only feature we added in and after playing one or two games, we were like "Yup - this works" .

Yes, this was immediately apparent even when playing the pre-alpha. Once I noticed that the "radius of magical light" had vanished from units, I knew my AT guns would fare far better in combat.

After the current closed beta test, it was still just as obvious that this system is a significant improvement and a step forward in RTS games in general. Especially in CoH where realism is constantly trying to balance with gameplay, it offers both a realistic sense of strategic awareness and more strategic options for the player. As an example, flanking becomes more viable and has more route/directional options than before.

If your T-34 fires at the Pioneers, it will reveal itself and the Panther will kill it. This is why I'd like to see a hold-fire button on ALL vehicles in COH2. This situation happens even more frequently in Blizzards when all units Sight range is drastically decreased.

Completely agree. I'd go so far as to say ALL units should have a "hold-fire" button. Might seem arbitrary to some, but those who prefer stealth or would like more micro-management, the option would be there. You also wouldn't have to use it if you didn't want to, so no real change in core gameplay. Seems simple and very doable.

The ideal solution imho, cannot be implemented due to time (though you can do it through scaleform).

Instead of revealing the unit, the fog of war should get a AOE mark, as well as the minimap or tactical map. These marks would only appear on coordinates clouded by the fog of war.

Imagine the possibilities if this was implemented in a patch: you could bait the enemy.

I like the idea of everyone having a hold fire button. Seems like a good idea anyway, let alone taking into the consideration of the truesight feature highlighted above. If it does come in, make sure it is the same key for every unit, of course

Would also potentially allow for a devastating ambush. 2 or 3 hidden units opening fire simultaneously would make for a cool replay moment too.

Yeah I've been up for a hold fire button just to make some neat ambush scenarios. That compiled with Pol's awkward situation as highlighted above could make for a pretty strong reason to have it.

Anyone who played Men of War may remember it uses a 3 way system. Hold fire, Return fire and Open fire. I'm not saying copy that directly but at least with a Hold fire and Open fire we may be able to Utilize true-sight better.