Login

russian armor

IS-2 and Panther

20 Jan 2015, 14:32 PM
#21
avatar of TNrg

Posts: 640

Dear fellow COHfans,

Lately, next to all the other balance problems, I have the feeling that the IS-2, King Tiger and Panther are too overpowered. Not by gun or speed, but by armour. It's just plain stupid. I had a multiple games (unfortunatly I don't have the replays) where my P-4s tried attack the rear and bounced 7 times, before it penetrated once.


Yeah, I agree. I'm fine with heavy frontal armor, but side armor (significantly weaker) should be introduced. And rear armor (significantly weaker than side armor) as well. It would actually reward flanking tactics, say a regular T-34/86 vs King tiger would at least have a chance to do something. It would also promote supporting your valuable heavy tanks with AT guns and overextending would get punished a lot better.

However, for this to happen the vehicle pathing should also be improved dramatically so that the vehicles don't start spinning 180 or 360 when you order a simple movement command.
20 Jan 2015, 23:20 PM
#22
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4928

Vehicle rotation speed should be increased as well. CoH1's pathing was just as bad, yet people often praise CoH1's pathing in comparison to CoH2. It took me awhile to realise until I compared them, and I noticed CoH1 vehicles rotated much faster, and this is why people going between CoH1 and CoH2 thought CoH1 vehicles pathed better. They didn't, they just turned around faster so mistakes were less noticeable.
20 Jan 2015, 23:36 PM
#23
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

CoH1's pathing was just as bad, yet people often praise CoH1's pathing in comparison to CoH2. It took me awhile to realise until I compared them, and I noticed CoH1 vehicles rotated much faster, and this is why people going between CoH1 and CoH2 thought CoH1 vehicles pathed better. They didn't, they just turned around faster so mistakes were less noticeable.


Actually, its because maps were much more flat and plain. You didn't had half as many details/cover ect that would impact pathing.
20 Jan 2015, 23:47 PM
#24
avatar of ilGetUSomDay

Posts: 612



When I see a IS-2, I must 100% go for T4 for the panther, since the rest of the tanks are completely garden to it (Ostheer). OKW is completely different, because you have the King Tiger and the Panther to counter it.

Consider the AT guns also as completely useless to the high amount of armour. While you go AT-guns with USF or Sovs vs a KT or a Panther it's also completely laughable. Once I went in a 4v4 for fun with 6 USF AT guns, to see how strong the KT's armour was. 4 hits in approxamatly 18 shots. RNG is a part of it, but only hitting 22,2% of your shots is no counter.


Something to consider when facing IS-2s is the power of the Stug. It has similar penetration issues however is much cheaper And its vet ability allows you to stun lock the heavy armor in front of your Paks
21 Jan 2015, 00:42 AM
#25
avatar of Enkidu

Posts: 351

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Jan 2015, 23:36 PMKatitof


Actually, its because maps were much more flat and plain. You didn't had half as many details/cover ect that would impact pathing.

One of the many amazing things Cruzz mod did was make capture points intangible. It made pathing around points so much better. Not really sure why the flags are solid objects to begin with.
21 Jan 2015, 00:57 AM
#26
avatar of Lichtbringer

Posts: 476

Tanks have "Sidearmor". What people actually mean by saying they should get "Sidearmor" is that the Sidearmor should be weaker...

If a tank has a 50% chance to be penetrated from the front, and 100% from the rear... when the enemy hits "sidearmor" from 90° it has a 75% chance to penetrate. I don't see how that is not Sidearmor?
21 Jan 2015, 01:01 AM
#27
avatar of TNrg

Posts: 640

Tanks have "Sidearmor". What people actually mean by saying they should get "Sidearmor" is that the Sidearmor should be weaker...

If a tank has a 50% chance to be penetrated from the front, and 100% from the rear... when the enemy hits "sidearmor" from 90° it has a 75% chance to penetrate. I don't see how that is not Sidearmor?


There's only front and rear armor in this game. Half of the tank is front armor, half is rear. Even from the sides.

http://static1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110729013732/companyofheroes/en/images/5/57/Penetration_Tiger-Shermans.jpg

The green half (even from the sides) is front armor. And the red half, even the sides, is rear armor. Yes, you read it right.
21 Jan 2015, 01:05 AM
#28
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1

Considering the current meta is IS2 spam which sucks even harder for Ostheer than it does for OKW, I wouldn't mind a nice buff of Ostheer armor.
21 Jan 2015, 02:02 AM
#29
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4928

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Jan 2015, 23:36 PMKatitof
Actually, its because maps were much more flat and plain. You didn't had half as many details/cover ect that would impact pathing.


I compared games on Semois / Semoisky to try and negate map design as an issue. Although you are right, some maps love to catch vehicles and hold them in place while they try to wiggle free.
21 Jan 2015, 02:07 AM
#30
avatar of QueenRatchet123

Posts: 2280 | Subs: 2

Permanently Banned
Considering the current meta is IS2 spam which sucks even harder for Ostheer than it does for OKW, I wouldn't mind a nice buff of Ostheer armor.


its worse for OKW. paks end heavy tanks pretty good. plus all the tiger commanders
21 Jan 2015, 02:34 AM
#31
avatar of CieZ

Posts: 1468 | Subs: 4



its worse for OKW. paks end heavy tanks pretty good. plus all the tiger commanders


It's better for OKW. They can field Panthers easily, Ost cannot.

The Tiger gets completely dominated by the Is-2 at all ranges.

The ZiS has a higher chance to penetrate frontal armor of Tiger than PaK has to penetrate front of Is2.

Is-2 vs Tiger is not a winning fight for Ostheer.
21 Jan 2015, 02:37 AM
#32
avatar of Lichtbringer

Posts: 476

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Jan 2015, 01:01 AMTNrg


There's only front and rear armor in this game. Half of the tank is front armor, half is rear. Even from the sides.

http://static1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110729013732/companyofheroes/en/images/5/57/Penetration_Tiger-Shermans.jpg

The green half (even from the sides) is front armor. And the red half, even the sides, is rear armor. Yes, you read it right.


Thats what I am saying. Still, when shooting at a Tank from the front, you have a chance to penetrate, when shooting at the back of a tank you have a chance to penetrate, and when shooting at the side of a tank you have a different chance to penetrate. So for all intends and purposes, it has "Sidearmor".
21 Jan 2015, 02:47 AM
#33
avatar of QueenRatchet123

Posts: 2280 | Subs: 2

Permanently Banned
jump backJump back to quoted post21 Jan 2015, 02:34 AMCieZ


It's better for OKW. They can field Panthers easily, Ost cannot.

The Tiger gets completely dominated by the Is-2 at all ranges.

The ZiS has a higher chance to penetrate frontal armor of Tiger than PaK has to penetrate front of Is2.

Is-2 vs Tiger is not a winning fight for Ostheer.


:guyokay: ......
21 Jan 2015, 02:52 AM
#34
avatar of ThoseDeafMutes

Posts: 1026



Thats what I am saying. Still, when shooting at a Tank from the front, you have a chance to penetrate, when shooting at the back of a tank you have a chance to penetrate, and when shooting at the side of a tank you have a different chance to penetrate. So for all intends and purposes, it has "Sidearmor".


That is extremely contrived reasoning and satisfies nobody who wants side armour. Your original post was that we want side armour to be weaker, but no, we want side armour to be a statistic that exists in the game independently of front and rear armour. We don't want rear armour all the way around, we don't want front armour all the way around, we want side armour for when shells hit the side of the tank.

You literally said there is a different % to penetrate when hitting the side. But that is factually incorrect. The front half of the tank always hits front armour, the rear half of the tank always hits rear armour.
21 Jan 2015, 02:57 AM
#35
avatar of CieZ

Posts: 1468 | Subs: 4



:guyokay: ......


+1 Good constructive post Queen. Thank you for your insight.

On a serious note the Is-2, Tiger, KT, (potentially) Panther and the super heavies are way too strong when compared to the mediums that are base-line for the factions.

I feel like a broken record saying it but it is just silly when the first Tiger costs less MP and essentially the same amount of fuel as the first P4, yet is 3-4x as strong. Same can be said about the T34/76 when compared to the Is-2.

In the same vein, a Tiger will take down 3-4 T34/76 while costing less, and being less risky of an investment just like an Is-2 will beat 3 (maybe 4) P4s.

Blah blah same old call-in arguments. Heavies have too much armor, too much AoE and probably too much HP. Yes Panther frontal armor is dumb but at least it doesn't demolish infantry... and it is just about the only thing that can (sometimes) stand up to Is-2s.
21 Jan 2015, 03:33 AM
#36
avatar of WhySooSerious

Posts: 1248

Yeah they are hard to kill with AT. Paks have a hard time penetrating the IS2 like other factions against heavy armor since the IS2 armor got its armor buffed. I dream of their armor being lowered but in return they get more health so that my at guns will penetrate them but not kill them so quickly. But that is just a dream of mine I don't believe it would be good for the game. :D
21 Jan 2015, 05:07 AM
#37
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1

What Ostheer needs is HEAT rounds, give them a commander that has it or hell, just make it a upgrade from one of the tier buildings. Would go a long way to making P4's have some impact and allowing something to be done about IS2 spam.
21 Jan 2015, 08:22 AM
#38
avatar of Iron Emperor

Posts: 1653

What Ostheer needs is HEAT rounds, give them a commander that has it or hell, just make it a upgrade from one of the tier buildings. Would go a long way to making P4's have some impact and allowing something to be done about IS2 spam.


HEAT rounds would be a ok, but the HEAT rounds shouldn't be available for a Panther, since that tank penetrates good enough.
21 Jan 2015, 08:23 AM
#39
avatar of TNrg

Posts: 640

Yeah they are hard to kill with AT. Paks have a hard time penetrating the IS2 like other factions against heavy armor since the IS2 armor got its armor buffed. I dream of their armor being lowered but in return they get more health so that my at guns will penetrate them but not kill them so quickly. But that is just a dream of mine I don't believe it would be good for the game. :D


Tanks don't need more health. Thanks to death crits, the tanks effectively have a HP increase worth 1-2 penetrating shots :facepalm:
21 Jan 2015, 08:30 AM
#40
avatar of Iron Emperor

Posts: 1653

A Tiger 1 with 1280 hp with it's current armour would be ok (like it was)Enough penetrating shots and some better survivability.
0 user is browsing this thread:

Ladders Top 10

  • #
    Steam Alias
    W
    L
    %
    Streak
Data provided by Relic Relic Entertainment

Replay highlight

VS
  • U.S. Forces flag cblanco ★
  • The British Forces flag 보드카 중대
  • Oberkommando West flag VonManteuffel
  • Ostheer flag Heartless Jäger
uploaded by XXxxHeartlessxxXX

Board Info

627 users are online: 1 member and 626 guests
donofsandiego
0 post in the last 24h
7 posts in the last week
34 posts in the last month
Registered members: 49118
Welcome our newest member, Ava Sofia
Most online: 2043 users on 29 Oct 2023, 01:04 AM