soviet vs okw matchup

The sequel to my ostheer vs usf thread, and once again balanced around 1v1 and 2v2.


The soviets have some issue when fighting against okw, conscripts are even more useless in the mid/late game vs okw because of obers and vet 5 volks or the plethora of okw elite infantry. I would suggest buffing their vet 2/3 abilites and giving vet combat bonuses to like healing out of combat. Another suggestion would also be giving them a weapon upgrade aswell, which would also give the soviets a munitions sink.

In t1 soviet snipers need to be one man and penals need a buff of some sort, there is currently no reason to really chose them over conscripts. Cons have more versatility (at nades) than penals which only have flame throwers and satchels.Making them long range infantry with a price increase could be an option or buffing their short range power with an increase to distinguish them from cons better.

soviet t2 is in a pretty good spot imo, apart from the soviet mortar which is under performing I feel. it doesn't have the rof of the german mortar or fire power of the 120mm, it supposedly more accurate, but I dont really see it, in fact it seems the German mortar is more accurate than it.

Soviet t3/4 is suffering alot vs okw because of the shrek volks and the quick and easy access the the puma and the jagpanzer that leads to the call in meta. the t70 doesn't come early enough to make much of a difference against okw because of shreks and pumas which invalidates it and the t34 as well, you cant kite them because the range difference between them is so minuscule, it doesn't matter that they out range them by alittle. the puma will easily chase them off, and using a jagpanzer is much easier because it'll be always supported by shreks. The su76 has been worthless since the beta, all it needs is a buff to its ai and maybe its arty strike and the su85 needs to have better maneuverability and path finding ( all tanks do)

Soviet teching along with ostheer needs a general redone its not nearly as efficient and rewarding as the okw and usf teching. Another issue soviets have is the over reliance on call ins because of their inefficient teching and awful tier units. A fix would be ofcourse buffing the stock units, but also reverting call ins back to the way they were in beta, example= unlock t34/85 at 9 cp and you build said tank in soviet t3, the same with the is2 and the isu is build in t4.

Guards need a buff they were pretty good pre lmg nerf( which wasn't really a nerf) the only unit that was really affected it seems were guards. I am tired of buying dps for 72 munitions (why are they 75 munitions?????!?!?!) and losing a dp in their first engagement. Not only that their ai is really lack luster, they are not very elite being guards. They need a general combat buff and make the dps drop less often and make the an upgrade along with the dp.

Well, no wonder, everybody knows you support soviets. You show some convenient condescendence for ostheer because this is the only faction you can crush without to much trouble (I think it allways was the same, but now it's worst as ostheer is close to shit) but you hate OKW the most because it can hold on and even outperform your beloved faction.

As soviet, I am a fan of maxim spam (if you do it right, nothing, I mean nothing can stop it at least in 2v2 if the both players are playing the same shit). With this strategy, me and my 2v2 partner were beaten only when severely outplayed and it was really close. If you suffer with T3 or T4 against OKW, you did something wrong until then. By the time you build your first T34, the OKW players should be blocked, with little options. I found it hard to do this with penals, they are good until middle game, but with maxim spam + mortars + Zis and one - 2 T34 it's not hard at all. There are several degrees of maxim spam. Think at the worst one possible. That is what me and my partner do.

As a conclusion, if anything screams for a fix is ostheer and usf (buffs), and maybe, just maybe okw (related to 3-4 unit types) (nerfs).

Related to soviets, they are maybe dull, maybe not, but for sure they don't need buffs.

Soviet teching along with ostheer needs a general redone its not nearly as efficient and rewarding as the okw and usf teching. Another issue soviets have is the over reliance on call ins because of their inefficient teching and awful tier units. A fix would be ofcourse buffing the stock units

This is one of the most important changes that have to be made in the next balance patch. Soviet T3/T4 is way too expensive for 120 fuel and Wehrmacht teching is overall terrible.

Teching for both vCoH2 factions is pretty lackluster compared to the new WFA factions which is one of the reasons why the call-in meta exists. People tend to skip T3/T4 to wait for call-ins because teching is too expensive and because some units are simply not worth it.

Soviet fuel costs for T3/T4 should be reduced to something around 100 fuel and once you've built either T3 or T4 the other building gets cheaper. Then, some units should receive minor buffs like the SU-76 (penetration/health increase) or the T-34/76 (slightly less scatter for example).

Wehrmacht teching could be changed this way:

Costs for Battlephases: 100MP + 20 fuel
Costs for buildings: 100MP + 40 fuel (T2), 100MP + 60 fuel (T3) and 100MP + 80 fuel for T4.

This would also make the USF vs Ostheer matchup less problematic due to the reduced MP drain.

Once teching has been adjusted for Ostheer and Soviets, call-ins should be reworked by introducing a fuel penalty for having more than one heavy tank on the field and/or simply limiting the number of heavy tanks a player can have at the same time.

Teching for Soviets/Ostheer has to be brought in line with the new factions.

As soviet, I am a fan of maxim spam (if you do it right, nothing, I mean nothing can stop it at least in 2v2 if the both players are playing the same shit). With this strategy, me and my 2v2 partner were beaten only when severely outplayed and it was really close. If you suffer with T3 or T4 against OKW, you did something wrong until then. By the time you build your first T34, the OKW players should be blocked, with little options. I found it hard to do this with penals, they are good until middle game, but with maxim spam + mortars + Zis and one - 2 T34 it's not hard at all. There are several degrees of maxim spam. Think at the worst one possible. That is what me and my partner do.

Maxim spam is easy to shut down, no snares, no scaling. I guess it's a matter of skill levels on the same way i say OKW is easier to play but not neccesarily better. I'm "afraid" whenever i see either no tech (con spam) or T1 openings than T2.
The reason is simple: you ever lose map control with maxim spam and you won't recover it. And to do that is as simple as hugging green cover, houses, flanking, scouting/crashing with SwS.

If OKW players didn't get a kubel every single time, then SOV players wouldn't bother going T1 in the first place. It's an obvious counter to the instantly-rush-kubel(and sturmpios)-to-cut-off. And possibly the only?

Maxim spam is easy to shut down, no snares, no scaling.

On 1v1 it is. I'm talking mainly about 2v2 here. I have no worries for the map control. Little or equivalent in startgame, then bit by bit push and strangle your enemy, there is nowhere to go, maxim is everywhere. Behind maxim is the mortar (regular or 120 mm). Next to the maxim is the Zis gun for vehicle atempts. The 2 engies squads already placed some mines and have flame throwers to punnish succesfull flanking manuever. They are hepled by 1 or 2 T34s that are quite mobile and can go fast where they are needed in order to prevent escapes from the maxim net. OKW T2 and T4 are going down to zis guns and mortars. Add one or two guard squads for button and light vehicles attack prevention (they will work together with Zis or/and T34s). Use othe nasty things that your doctrine provides you (I prefer the 2 T34/85). Have fun.

The only intelligent players I met (they knew how to respond to this) were using at ostheer the mortar ht and at okw the wurframen. But even with these the maxim spam stomp is not guaranteed. Flanking, regular mortars, Leigh, flames, light vehicles, arty, ... nothing else worked. So...don't tell me about soviets. . if they want, they can make you cry.

Stuff said then...

In t1 soviet snipers need to be one man...

More stuff

Going with the big no on that one. Does anyone really want sniper duals again? Every game? IMHO sniper/countersniping of COH1 was least fun and one of the most frustrating aspect of the game. I am happy that it is absent and hope we never see it in COH2.

Going with the big no on that one. Does anyone really want sniper duals again? Every game? IMHO sniper/countersniping of COH1 was least fun and one of the most frustrating aspect of the game. I am happy that it is absent and hope we never see it in COH2.

There are no sniper duels since we don't have the ridiculous cloaks that allowed them to hide in the open and the fact getting an Ost sniper vs t1 is a big no-no not just due to the Soviet sniper, but also the scout car. Also due to the fact most infantry can actually kill the sniper at range.

Well, no wonder, everybody knows you support soviets. You show some convenient condescendence for ostheer because this is the only faction you can crush without to much trouble (I think it allways was the same, but now it's worst as ostheer is close to shit) but you hate OKW the most because it can hold on and even outperform your beloved faction.

As soviet, I am a fan of maxim spam (if you do it right, nothing, I mean nothing can stop it at least in 2v2 if the both players are playing the same shit). With this strategy, me and my 2v2 partner were beaten only when severely outplayed and it was really close. If you suffer with T3 or T4 against OKW, you did something wrong until then. By the time you build your first T34, the OKW players should be blocked, with little options. I found it hard to do this with penals, they are good until middle game, but with maxim spam + mortars + Zis and one - 2 T34 it's not hard at all. There are several degrees of maxim spam. Think at the worst one possible. That is what me and my partner do.

As a conclusion, if anything screams for a fix is ostheer and usf (buffs), and maybe, just maybe okw (related to 3-4 unit types) (nerfs).

Related to soviets, they are maybe dull, maybe not, but for sure they don't need buffs.

You're a joke i don't know how you expect me to take you seriously, take your craps somewhere else

This thread is amusing.

Soviet is extremely strong against OKW and can play Con spam, t1, or t2 into T3 or T4 or call-ins.

OKW can't handle proper flamer M3 micro, proper Con spam, or well micro'd Maxims. Not to mention how busted 120mms, T34/85s, Is-2s and Katys are vs OKW.

They also have no proper counter to Shocks besides 251 Flak/Luchs, both of which are easy to handle with ZiS/mines/AT nades...

I'm not saying that OKW doesn't need some changes... Obers and schreck blobs are stupid. But to try and argue that Soviet is weak to OKW is a bit misinformed.

On 1v1 it is. I'm talking mainly about 2v2 here. I have no worries for the map control. Little or equivalent in startgame, then bit by bit push and strangle your enemy, there is nowhere to go, maxim is everywhere. Behind maxim is the mortar (regular or 120 mm). Next to the maxim is the Zis gun for vehicle atempts. The 2 engies squads already placed some mines and have flame throwers to punnish succesfull flanking manuever. They are hepled by 1 or 2 T34s that are quite mobile and can go fast where they are needed in order to prevent escapes from the maxim net. OKW T2 and T4 are going down to zis guns and mortars. Add one or two guard squads for button and light vehicles attack prevention (they will work together with Zis or/and T34s). Use othe nasty things that your doctrine provides you (I prefer the 2 T34/85). Have fun.

The only intelligent players I met (they knew how to respond to this) were using at ostheer the mortar ht and at okw the wurframen. But even with these the maxim spam stomp is not guaranteed. Flanking, regular mortars, Leigh, flames, light vehicles, arty, ... nothing else worked. So...don't tell me about soviets. . if they want, they can make you cry.

I'll say it again, if there is an opening i'm not afraid from SU is maxim spam because it's easier to shut down in comparison to constant agression from Con spam, wiping M3 kitting micro or double sprinting snipers. I just like when people go maxim spam, specially on certain maps where i can easily block all the retreat paths with sandbags and you can't vault over them

Note: theres a difference between maxim spam and con with maxim support. I guess you are talking of going 1 or no conscript into 3/4 maxims.

+1 to Ciez, if you wanted to talk about an unfair MU like ost vs usf you should have talked about OKW vs USF, now that's more or less unwinnable unless RNG heavily favors the USF player once the panthers start rolling out.

On the other hand, the only wrong things about the Soviet vs OKW MU are timing that heavily favor one faction or the other in specific moments, as it was pointed out before the M3 completely dominates the early game with no counterplay avaible, then it's the turn of the okw, then it quickly swings back to the soviet if they went 34/85s or evens out between panthers and ISU/IS-2 call ins.

Edit: about the guards, they are indeed "bad" right now, but they have the potential to become broken, what I would suggest about them is to separate PTRS and LMG upgrades, buffing both to useful levels but mutually exclusive.

PTRS upgrade would grant 1 or 2 PTRS with a way higher dps than now and the button ability, basically they cover a semi-decent AT role by themselves even against medium tanks.

The LMG upgrade would again give them 1 LMG with appropriate damage for the anti infantry role, and some other utility against infantry, no button.

This thread is amusing.

Soviet is extremely strong against OKW and can play Con spam, t1, or t2 into T3 or T4 or call-ins.

OKW can't handle proper flamer M3 micro, proper Con spam, or well micro'd Maxims. Not to mention how busted 120mms, T34/85s, Is-2s and Katys are vs OKW.

They also have no proper counter to Shocks besides 251 Flak/Luchs, both of which are easy to handle with ZiS/mines/AT nades...

I'm not saying that OKW doesn't need some changes... Obers and schreck blobs are stupid. But to try and argue that Soviet is weak to OKW is a bit misinformed.

You amuse me, please explain to me how a faction with the cheapest mainline infantry with vet5/shreks and a cheap at gun in t1 along with pumas struggle vs scout cars. Soviet t3/4 isn't going to beat a experienced Okw opponent hence why everyone use call ins and sovs don't have any effective mainline infantry making maxims and snipers the only thing Soviets make every game because nothing else is as effective, and Okw has no counter to shocks what crack are you smoking? That's the dumbest thing I've read yet, that's not to mention how stukas ruin any t2 play and potentially snipers. Okw isn't a weak faction.

i feel like the matchup is not fun to play. very annoying matchups on both sides

I used it to good effect in 2 vs 2 and 4 vs 4 when i played soviet with cons AT nades and mines for backup.
Admittedly i'm not a regular soviet player so i defer to you on this,but its not as farfetched as u might think.
For those who think its completely impractical jesulin used this vs cruzz in semifinals and won.

Jesulin also won the final game of the tourney with Wehr... Just sayin.

You amuse me, please explain to me how a faction with the cheapest mainline infantry with vet5/shreks and a cheap at gun in t1 along with pumas struggle vs scout cars. Soviet t3/4 isn't going to beat a experienced Okw opponent hence why everyone use call ins and sovs don't have any effective mainline infantry making maxims and snipers the only thing Soviets make every game because nothing else is as effective, and Okw has no counter to shocks what crack are you smoking? That's the dumbest thing I've read yet, that's not to mention how stukas ruin any t2 play and potentially snipers. Okw isn't a weak faction.

For the M3s: timing is everything.

Your flamer + m3 hits WELL before the first schreck, let alone the first 251 flak or puma. Even 1 schreck isn't enough to keep the car in check. The schreck can only be in one place, the car has a huge mobility advantage. Any lone squads are going to get picked off/harassed/bled, forcing you to play mainly around your lone schreck squad - and god forbid you lose it.

Every game that I open with M3s I get at least one squad wipe, generally more. Plus it gives CP and vet to either penals or your engineers. Vet 2 flamer penals are super hard for OKW to deal with because Oorah lets them soft-counter Obers while completely hard-countering Volks/Sturms.

I doubt I'd open this way in the current 1v1 meta, because the 251 flak is so strong against T1 openings, however I almost always open this way in 2v2s, and have my USF partner get Capt. Capt tech utterly dominates OKW Mech openers. In my opinion it is better to open 3-4 Cons into T2 as Soviet vs OKW in 1v1.

T3 and T4 are both quite strong against OKW, again because of the timing. If you have map control going T3 for a quick T70 or T34 can be extremely punishing as OKW doesn't have access to PaKs and Raketens just suck. Their Panther is going to hit long after your initial vehicle, and you'll have either ZiS guns or Jacksons to contend with the panther anyway. If you don't have map control, you skip the tech and fall back on your IS2s or T34/85s. T3 is going to be better in 1v1 than in a 2v2, because your USF partner is probably going to rush a Sherman anyways, there isn't much need for your T3 tank.

Shocks are super good against OKW because of the way all their weapon profiles work. You can close in on Volks extremely easily, you dominate Sturms, and with proper flanking you can do well against Obers. Of course you'll lose to the Obers if you try to run straight at them but with green cover/true sight/smoke it isn't that hard to get into close range, at which point you absolutely wreck them. Biggest issue for Shocks is the Luchs/251 Flak really. But neither of those units is scary for a Con/T2 opener.

Finally, OKW has literally no good answer for Is-2s - and tends to struggle against T34/85s. The Panther can keep the IS-2 at bay, but struggles to ever kill it, especially when you have to fear AT nades/mines/ZiS constantly. Meanwhile the IS-2 is running around 1 shotting squads, laughing at schrecks and getting to vet 2... at which point your Panther is absolutely gardened.

Not to mention, you literally cannot open with a forward med truck against Soviet. You will lose to 120s every time.

If you read my post more carefully (reading comprehension is important boys!) you'll see that I never called OKW a weak faction. In fact I clearly pointed out some issues where they could be toned down/redesigned. They're undeniably the stronger Axis faction but they're absolutely disadvantaged against Soviets in 1v1 and 2v2.

In 2vs2 I'am more scared of double soviets, than double USF or mixed They are not that bad

T-34/76 should be swaped by T-34/85

I also feel the game would be much healthier if T34/76 was replaced with T34/85.

The problem with this is that Soviet's stock tank would now cost 400MP / 140FU, have 800 health, and have a dual purpose shell. This would help vs OKW, but against Ostheer it would only make T3 even more redundant.

They also have no proper counter to Shocks

Obersoldaten?

Jesulin also won the final game of the tourney with Wehr... Just sayin.

Yeah but he's also Jesulin, the only player being Top 2 with every faction, followed only by ihitto and OMGPOP as Top 3 in 2 factions.

Hello Everyone, newer player here and first post.

CoH2 is a great game, but I agree with the original post that slight changes to OKW are warranted and could also increase realism.

I propose reducing the range on Panzershrecks by 5, slightly reducing their usefulness and encouraging the use of alternative AT. Currently the range of Panzershrecks is 35 while the T34 has a range of 40, almost the same, while in real life the effective ranges were 150m and 1000m respectively. By reducing Shreck range frontal charges of Shreck blobs would be more vulnerable to kiting, encouraging the OKW player to become more creative in order to get their infantry close enough to use them as was necessary during the war. Perhaps people would even find it necessary to build a Jagdpanzer occasionally.

Hello Everyone, newer player here and first post.

CoH2 is a great game, but I agree with the original post that slight changes to OKW are warranted and could also increase realism.

u want realism?

go play men of war

The problem with this is that Soviet's stock tank would now cost 400MP / 140FU, have 800 health, and have a dual purpose shell. This would help vs OKW, but against Ostheer it would only make T3 even more redundant.



Obersoldaten?



Yeah but he's also Jesulin, the only player being Top 2 with every faction, followed only by ihitto and OMGPOP as Top 3 in 2 factions.

Hehe I know, but my point was that citing a specific tourney game as evidence of strat validity or balance is a very shaky leg to stand on. He talks about Wehr weakness in almost every post then cites a specific soviet game to prove a point. I was just showing that by that logic, Wehr is fine because Jesulin won the finals with them (I don't think they're fine fyi).