Ostheer vs usf matchup

Wehrmacht is also the only faction that needs a building to employ its basic infantry.While seemingly insignificant,it means often in the first engagement you find yourself outnumbered.
Grenadiers can hold there own if there is a lot of cover(at least some green) around,though cover makes mg 42 rather useless because it takes ages to suppress anything,mortar is much better here.
In the open grens are slaughtered by rifles and mg42 which should hold them back atleast -can't most of the time.Grenadier dps earlygame is insufficient to defeat the flanking rifles,the additional free lieutenant with BAR compounds the problem by outnumbering you while ur desperately teching.Mostly hope flamer pio is upto the job.

Thing is of its 3 doctrines,america fields extreme powerful infantry in all 3 doctrines.In airborne,paras once upgunned have no ost counter,even LMG grenadiers will not stop them.
Same for 1919,no ost infantry counter.Ur only hope is rifle grenade and mortars.
Veteran riflemen.Starting off with vet 1 or vet 2,already another advantage over already hard pressed ost infantry.Gets to vet 3 faster.

221/222 -wth can this thing do?Nothing.Negligible dmg to infantry at range and if u try to close to get better dmg u die simply,1 at ande will be more or less death.I see shocks charginga nd bullying it.
So you get ur pak out if u have lasted that long and guard it with everything u have at ur cutoff or fuel as rifle horde hovers alternatively attacking where u aren't and probing for one mistake,one way in to end game.He pens u in.preventing any small offensive with with light vehicle and in maybe a small number of cases u make it to tiger,in most cases if u didn't die early-he eventually breaks through and finishes u off.

grenadiers for the most part are fine. Its just that mg42 is UP while sniper is not a viable option. 222 to counter m20s are only effective if the american doesn't utilize the free bazooka the crew gets. Not to mention the thing costs a lot for being crap on wheels.

I kind of feel like the only thing the 222 needs is slightly more armor so that it isn't so frequently forced off by just rifle fire sans AT. The M3 and kubel need small arms vulnerability because of their timing but I feel like the 222 comes late enough that making it a bit more resilient to small arms would be fair.

+1

I think Cruzz suggested this somewhere and I liked the simplicity of it as a solution. Move Grens to the HQ like every other faction and their baseline infantry. Bring the cost of Pios down, to bring them in line with other Engineer units.

The only thing i'd add to that, is LMG's for Grens require the Infanterie Kompanie and T1. Infanterie Kompanie should cost no fuel, but move its existing fuel cost (iirc 10 fuel) and add that to the t1 tech upgrade cost. Same difference, but may help discourage people gren spamming and forgoing the Infanterie Kompanie for a faster t1 and then back teching later to just get the LMG upgrade.

In addition, imo, Add 8 hp to the Ostheer sniper, reduce the cost of his heat round to 30-35 munitions and I feel Ostheer would be in a fairly good spot.

I think Cruzz suggested this somewhere and I liked the simplicity of it as a solution. Move Grens to the HQ like every other faction and their baseline infantry. Bring the cost of Pios down, to bring them in line with other Engineer units.

The only thing i'd add to that, is LMG's for Grens require the Infanterie Kompanie and T1. Infanterie Kompanie should cost no fuel, but move its existing fuel cost (iirc 10 fuel) and add that to the t1 tech upgrade cost. Same difference, but may help discourage people gren spamming and forgoing the Infanterie Kompanie for a faster t1 and then back teching later to just get the LMG upgrade.

In addition, imo, Add 8 hp to the Ostheer sniper, reduce the cost of his heat round to 30-35 munitions and I feel Ostheer would be in a fairly good spot.

That won't change the basic MP disparity in teching caused by ost style vs usf free units.
Nor fix mg42.
Car will still be shit.
Pzgrenadiers still overpriced and not good for much.And ost will still have no advanced infantry(this can atleast be justified if the mg42 is strong enough to hold back enemy elite infantry which its not,otherwise ost is defenceless vs 1919,paras,needs 3 grens for 1 shocks)
T4 still inaccesible.

It'll give Ostheer 20-30 more MP to start off with if Pios cost is reduced in line with other engineer units.

Grens purchased from the HQ would obviously mean that Ostheer could get their baseline infantry out just that bit quicker and delay the Infanterie Kompanie (about 80mp iirc) a tad, so your not right off the bat investing MP into a tech building unless you want to.

This should mean more field presence early on, and thus more map control, which means more equitable fuel/munitions in the matchup.

The MG42, Scout car and Pgrens imo aren't shit, situational perhaps, but not garbage. With just a bit more of a solid early game, i'd like to see the lay of the land before making more changes across the board.

The tech vs call in issue requires a solution across the board for all factions, especially Soviets and to a slightly less extent Ostheer. That is a wee bit of a larger issue and going to need a pretty expansive solution.

It'll give Ostheer 20-30 more MP to start off with if Pios cost is reduced in line with other engineer units.

Grens purchased from the HQ would obviously mean that Ostheer could get their baseline infantry out just that bit quicker and delay the Infanterie Kompanie (about 80mp iirc) a tad, so your not right off the bat investing MP into a tech building unless you want to.

This should mean more field presence early on, and thus more map control, which means more equitable fuel/munitions in the matchup.

The MG42, Scout car and Pgrens imo aren't shit, situational perhaps, but not garbage. With just a bit more of a solid early game, i'd like to see the lay of the land before making more changes across the board.

The tech vs call in issue requires a solution across the board for all factions, especially Soviets and to a slightly less extent Ostheer. That is a wee bit of a larger issue and going to need a pretty expansive solution.

Ok,i get the sense of the post then.
By shit i largely mean incapable of doig their designated roles,not completely useless.Just clarifying -which is the acse for pzgrens and mg42.For armored car i will repeat -yeah its total shit in every sense of the word.
However when teching,i didn't mean tech vs call-in.I meant the enormous MP costs for ost to access units which it can't due to pressure.Not armor for call-ins.These extra mp costs coupled with american free teching units create a disparity problem in field strength.

I meant the enormous MP costs for ost to access units which it can't due to pressure.Not armor for call-ins.These extra mp costs coupled with american free teching units create a disparity problem in field strength.

Then go soviet/USF way.

Make ost tiering cheaper, but now pfaust, LMG and pshrecks are optional upgrades from HQ.

but now pfaust

Actually It has fuel and manpower cost , it requires the T1 building to be used, if it's not present (or well, if it gets destroyed) you won't be able to use the panzerfaust

Actually It has fuel and manpower cost , it requires the T1 building to be used, if it's not present (or well, if it gets destroyed) you won't be able to use the panzerfaust

Remind me again how do ost build grens without building T1?

Or how often killing base buildings actually occur?

I have a question for everyone here. Does anyone know the upkeep cost of riflemen vs grens? How much MP income do you lose when you bring them on?

I have a question for everyone here. Does anyone know the upkeep cost of riflemen vs grens? How much MP income do you lose when you bring them on?

Upkeep=pop*1.5 but it really isn't indicator of performance.

I have a question for everyone here. Does anyone know the upkeep cost of riflemen vs grens? How much MP income do you lose when you bring them on?

They are both 7 pop cap.

Then go soviet/USF way.

Make ost tiering cheaper, but now pfaust, LMG and pshrecks are optional upgrades from HQ.

LMG and panzershrecks no problem for me at all,fausts however if an upgrade then t1 fuel costs needs reduction as its only defense vs early allied light vehicle.

LMG and panzershrecks no problem for me at all,fausts however if an upgrade then t1 fuel costs needs reduction as its only defense vs early allied light vehicle.

So AT nade is for soviets who didn't go T1 against kubel/truck push abusers.
Still an upgrade.

Upkeep=pop*1.5 but it really isn't indicator of performance.

Is this true for all units across the board? I don't see this as a good balance perspective and just see it as a "meh pop x 1.5 whatever"

The MG42, Scout car and Pgrens imo aren't shit, situational perhaps, but not garbage. With just a bit more of a solid early game, i'd like to see the lay of the land before making more changes across the board.

Allow me to disagree. HMG42 is pure shit, along with other HMGs. Pzgrens come too late and can't do much good on their own, but they perform very well at AT role. Scout car is fine against Soviets but harder to use versus USF, but not that bad. People tend to forget its sight, specially when vetted. Kinda like a maphack with targeting scope (I don't know the stats but the sight range is HUGE).

As you said, more early game options for Ostheer is the main issue. That's why I think HMG42 needs buffs, specially when USF have Smoke grenades and Cons/shock spam is popular again.

Is this true for all units across the board? I don't see this as a good balance perspective and just see it as a "meh pop x 1.5 whatever"

Yes, its universal, no exceptions.

@ austerlitz and RMMLz, Yeah I feel ya's on where your coming from, the MG42 starts off lackluster due to a poor traverse speed and then jumps in performance at vet 2. Where for example, the Maxim starts off good and pretty much continues in the same vein. The MG42 with vet is better imo, but the Maxim is better at vet 0.

Personally think the MG42 could be tweaked to be a bit better from the start, but gain a bit less then it currently does with vet.

Alternatively, just make it so suppressed units can't throw nades for all factions. Would help allot and remove a bit of daftness from the game imo (crawl into nade range!)

Pgrens are good for their manpower cost, but will vary in effectiveness depending on the map/situation. I like that design tbh, unlike LMG grens/Obers/LMG paras, they require a bit more thought. Pity the new factions weren't designed with a similar mindset.

Scout car is a bitch to micro, turns like a truck and the acceleration rate is a bit meh for a glass cannon. Fix that and it'll be grand imo. Currently it is usable, but micro intensive and annoying.

I believe Ostheer get a discount on their LMG/Rifle nades as the tech is effectively built into the cost of tier one. But your paying for it in one lump sum effectively in the early game, which delays the t1 units and is a big investment in tech that you require munitions to use, which in the early game for Ostheer, is a bit light on the ground due to less map control and Ostheer requiring munitions for healing etc.

I prefer my original solution then a complete overhaul of the above, as I think incremental changes are easier to implement and judge. You have to consider, if you break it down so Ostheer can tech the LMG/Rifle nade etc individually, then t1 will cost less and Pgrens/scout cars/Pak will come much faster, which will present new balance considerations/challenges.

In regard to normal tech beyond t1, yeah, t4 is too expensive currently, again I like the common suggestion of adjusting the tech costs, so they are similar, but the buildings cost more and the tier tech less, so skipping a tier beyond t1 saves more resources.

But I feel that is another topic as Soviet tech would have to be adjusted at the same time

How I experienced "typical" USF-Ostheer (maybe a bit of satire):

0-5 mins: Grens are getting raped by rifles
5-10 mins: situation gets better for Ostheer (thanks to LMGs and 222/251)
10 mins: Sherman hits the field, if there is no pak/Pzgrens without Schrecks, Ostheer gets killed
10-15 mins: Ostheer losing all mapcontrol, except of some small parts. Rifles are also getting LMGs-> grens are getting raped again
~15 mins: Panzer 4 gets on the field and gets instantly counterd by a Jackson
15-25 mins: Ostheer try to hold some parts of the map and try not to get killed by E8 etc.

If there is no commander with tiger from Ostheer -> USF win

~25 mins: -Tiger hits the field, if USF hasn't prepared ( missing M20 mines, Jacksons, P47), Tiger will rape everything

25- ... "fair" fight starts

Alternative: -Tiger Ace: Ostheer press the "instant-button"

Alternative end 1: Ostheer makes a mistake (losing a gren squad in the earlie game)-> USF win
notices: USF losing sth. is not important.

Alternative end 2: Ostheer has lost to many VPs so the Tiger not even gets on the field

It is joke, how people playing only one side, want ballance this game.