M36- badly underpowered?

i think aimtime would be better than reload.

Damage, penetration etc... It does not matter since it can be killed in 2 shots.

Jackson can be used very well in defensive tactic but how the hell I suposed to use it offensive? I see 1/10hp Tiger and obvious thing is I should finish it but with Jackson it's impossible. It can't self spot (it does not have roof so I guess it's easy to take
binoculars to increase sight...) It does not have front armor, it does not have penetration good enough. So how to finish retreating tank? Most of the time it's suicide mission with little chance to do it.
Panther, Tiger, KT, JT, Ele, IS2, ISU, even SU85 don't have any problems when it comes to chase unit but USF? Glass-cannon Jackson without speed advantage (it's fast but not enough) or Sherman which has problem to penetrate PzIV. OST and OKW can use blitz, kill unit, smoke, reverse or self spot. SU can self spot or use huge IS2 front armor.

US Forces don't have any advantage when it comes to late-game. All you can do it's micro.
The worst is when Axis player have Ele or JT which properly used can completly push back Jacksons and make them useless.

Maybe increase cost, give it true armor (it had over 100mm in some places) and increase hp.
Or just give us commander with Pershing.

By the way, Jacksons alone, wihtout P47, are meh.

A schrek long range nerf and a .50 Cal upgrade on the Jackson would work.

Oh ya, reduce penetration of OKW Flak Truck so the Forward god base cant penetrate medium armor.

Also, if ever Ranger elite infantry and Pershing Heavy tank are added, they will NEED to be to core faction, NOT via a Commander.

Also, if ever Ranger elite infantry and Pershing Heavy tank are added, they will NEED to be to core faction, NOT via a Commander.

Yeah and also the Inglorious Basterds and Strategic Bombing Runs and Atom-Bombs and Chuck Norris also

Yeah and also the Inglorious Basterds and Strategic Bombing Runs and Atom-Bombs and Chuck Norris also

I suppose you have nothing against removing things like the Walking stuka, Ostwind and sturmtiger mmh? Considering they were also extremely rare, probably even more so than the Pershing regardless of its late introduction to the war.

I think allowing it to spot for itself with a somewhat expensive tank commander upgrade/toggle would be very nice too,it IS open topped. Same with the M10. And when its using this upgrade/ability it moves slower,like su85

And also has a commander appear and look around with his binoculars for eye candy

Can some one explain why m36 is an open top tank

Yet cant self spot?

That may be because no tank the game can see over 50 range. Exceptions are elefant, su85 and isu with focused vision. And i think only tank that can see 50 is command panther rest sees only 40. It might be a good idea to increase jacksons sight range to 50, 60 might be tad overpowered.

Can some one explain why m36 is an open top tank

Yet cant self spot?

EXACTLY


The whole point of the open top was for better vision. The commander can't stick his head out and get better sight? US had no binoculars?

SU85 gets a sight ability, germans get spotting scopes.

Something's gotta give with the jackson. It really does not have the penetration, durability, mobility or sight to compensate for its shortcomings.

Yeah and also the Inglorious Basterds and Strategic Bombing Runs and Atom-Bombs and Chuck Norris also

Incredibly ironic coming from a guy who plays with non-doctrinal KING TIGER and Obers

Keep it friendly, please. It's Sunday evening

I see CAPS arising....

(it does not have roof so I guess it's easy to take binoculars to increase sight...)

Funny enough the primary advantage of open-topped tanks was better sight, but this isn't represented in game at all. Not for the Ostwind, not for the M10, not for the M36.

That may be because no tank the game can see over 50 range. Exceptions are elefant, su85 and isu with focused vision. And i think only tank that can see 50 is command panther rest sees only 40. It might be a good idea to increase jacksons sight range to 50, 60 might be tad overpowered.

LOS for Tanks is 35, LOS for Scouts is 50, Command Panther has 55.

That may be because no tank the game can see over 50 range. Exceptions are elefant, su85 and isu with focused vision. And i think only tank that can see 50 is command panther rest sees only 40. It might be a good idea to increase jacksons sight range to 50, 60 might be tad overpowered.

Command Panther sight is 55, not 50(Puma/Kubel). All 35 sight vehicle(most non-scout vehicle sight is only 35) under Command Panther Aura(+20 sight) sees 55. Vet 5 Panther sight is 51(35+16), Vet 2 JadgPanther4 sight is 60.75(45*1.35).

Incidentally Jackson do have +30% sight range at vet 2 which boosts its sight to 45.5(35*1.3)= JadgPanther 4's Vet 0 sight range, problem is with horrible pathing, huge size and shrek blob running rampant you rarely see Vet 2 Jacksons.

The Jackson would be an amazing unit if it was in the Axis since it would be dealing with T34s and Sherman variants, which it would annihilate. But against Axis high armor values of the tanks make it much less effective. If you're facing down a player who has gone for a heavy T3 strategy, Ostwinds and P4s and such, it is quite effective, no real complaints. But most people don't do that, they're usually teching up to a big tank that will bounce your armor. And the supplementary AT of the German factions is really very effective.

I maintain my earlier suggestion - AP rounds become vet 0. In combination with an overall small nerf to Panzershreks (probably long range accuracy is best way to do that), I think the balance situation will be very good with the Jackson.

To whomever said it before - yeah, getting several Shermans is really needed for late game USF. HE rounds allow you to deal with shrek blobs very effectively while also being able to go toe-to-toe with T3 armor / light OKW vehicles. You need to use fast, numerous Shermans to destroy their army before they can get a critical mass of heavy armor w/ support. A lone Tiger Ace will fall to your forces, but if there are still panzergrens with shreks and MG42s and Paks on the field, you're pretty much fucked.

So the Panther has mediocre speed?

Toplol of this thread.

Also, if the Jackson has "paper armor" then by default the Su85 must have paper armor as well - but I've never heard anyone complaining about the Su85's armor.

Go watch the replay I linked Ugbear. Jacksons man-handling Tigers and KTs on one of the most axis favored maps in the current 2v2 pool. The Jackon is freaking amazing.

by medicore speed, panther has blitzkrieg

by denying others saying M36 has "paper armor" please name me a aixs weapon have problem pen jackson.

and yeah, a long range TD destroying slower heavies is amazing, should I mention that elephant have 320 damage alpha vs. 480 HP M36?

Elefant does 320 damage

Elefant does 320 damage

my fault, just remember 2 shoot goodbye M36

how about lowering the value of the problems? KT, JT and panthers. also, nerf blitz.

jacksons are great against all until panthers and above, when their armour values just are wayyyyy too high, 1 bounce per 3 shots is fine, having 3 consecutive bounces is not.

then, there're also sniper schrecks that compounds the problem even further.

A lot of really good points in here....

What I was trying to get across in the OP is that I feel like the M36 is very underwhelming in its role as the Apex US TD. It is supposed to be the final word in the destruction of enemy armor by occupying the highest tech position, and to me this makes sense- historically it was the heaviest armed production vehicle of the war for the US, tied with the T26 tank.

In practice its incredibly underwhelming to me. I realize I'm a noob and I have to worry about things like panzershrek sniping blobs and advanced Axis armor, but I just really feel like the M36 is a huge letdown, especially when the Wehr players are pulling our their shiny toys like the Tiger/KT/JT/Panther. Oh here you go US, you can have this mediocre dumbed down tank. We hope you like it because there are no better AT options other than a doctrinal air strike. It's a huge buzkiller.

As far as my noobish opinion, reading suggestions I really liked the idea from the moderator who suggested raising the penetration and reducing the RoF. I feel like that would make it much more relevant.

Alternatively keep the current RoF and raise the penetration and raise the price- I would be OK with a price increase if that made it more relevant against later game units but less so against T3 German ones.

For a practical example of how good Jacksons can be:
http://www.coh2.org/replay/27905/lemonciez-vs-tristanlevit

I watched your replay...you did well, but I didn't think the M36's were particularly effective. Your P47 did way more damage than them, and honestly you probably could've accomplished more by using M4A3s (yea I'm a noob but that was my take on that replay).