I usually feel like 100 pop cap is not nearly enough for USF after a certain point. The only way to field more than 3 vehicles in the mid-late game is if most of your infantry dies or you decrew/recrew which is very dangerous since you can then no longer reinforce.
Since taking on a late game axis army pretty much requires you to have huge amounts of stuff, I think a lot of USF units need to have their pop cap reduced.
For example, a panther is 16 pop cap while a jackson is 14.
The officers all have very high pop cap but don't perform very well in combat, especially the major.
The King Tiger is 26 pop cap but an equivalent amount in USF units of any kind would never stand a chance against it.
Thoughts?
USF pop cap
4 Dec 2014, 22:28 PM
#1
15 
Posts: 1970 | Subs: 5
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4 Dec 2014, 22:30 PM
#2
Posts: 249
Isnt there the cheesy De-crew vehicles trick that makes it possible to go waaaay over your forcelimit? 
Just use that one 
Just use that one 
Deputy Vice-President of the Angry Bears Clan!
4 Dec 2014, 22:31 PM
#3
15 Posts: 1970 | Subs: 5
The only way to field more than 3 vehicles in the mid-late game is if most of your infantry dies or you decrew/recrew which is very dangerous since you can then no longer reinforce.
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4 Dec 2014, 22:33 PM
#4
Posts: 249
well, you can reinforce when you decrew? o0
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4 Dec 2014, 22:33 PM
#5
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
Agreed. You can't get enough infantry, because they have more popcap then anything else, you can't get more vehicles, because they are just as strong as others but seem to get more popcap then others, especially lights.
And the best thing: You can't even think of combined arms, because support weapons and troops(pathfinders) will butcher your popcap for moderate at best effects.
And all that is before officers and medics, which are mandatory and still cost popcap.
USF is the only army that needs to give up popcap and fuel to heal troops.
And the best thing: You can't even think of combined arms, because support weapons and troops(pathfinders) will butcher your popcap for moderate at best effects.
And all that is before officers and medics, which are mandatory and still cost popcap.
USF is the only army that needs to give up popcap and fuel to heal troops.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
4 Dec 2014, 22:35 PM
#6
15 Posts: 1970 | Subs: 5
well, you can reinforce when you decrew? o0Even if this was a viable solution (which it's not) you shouldn't have to exploit a loophole in the faction's design to compete.
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4 Dec 2014, 22:42 PM
#7
Posts: 249
Even if this was a viable solution (which it's not) you shouldn't have to exploit a loophole in the faction's design to compete.
okay, now im gonna take this a little serious
I agree, the loophole isnt intended to be there, but right know USF popcap is a problem in itself.
As it is, the problem is as you stated, so change should happen. But what would it be?
If we lower the popcap of units, or increase the general popcap, the USF gets even more possibilitys to blob, which can be devasating if a game drags out ( 4vs4 generally, and probably only above 1v1).
It would get out of hand. I think the problem is the missing counter against the German Heavies, which only exist in mass producing Jacksons for the USF, and that makes it impossible to have infantry at the same time, so what the USF needs is a Unit that does not need blobbing and can counter German Heavies. An American heavy Tank i sugest, but i kinda like the way USF plays.
Deputy Vice-President of the Angry Bears Clan!
4 Dec 2014, 22:45 PM
#8
15 Posts: 1970 | Subs: 5
Well, if USF's units remain at their current level of strength, there needs to be more of them. If they get buffed then their popcap levels are justified. But I can't see how you would buff the major or ambulance for example to make them worth their pop cap in combat effectiveness.
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4 Dec 2014, 22:47 PM
#9
Posts: 543
I'm all pro-reduce-US-units-pop-all-around. I don't think blobbing is an issue.
4 Dec 2014, 22:49 PM
#10
Posts: 2053
MP bleed is what falters high popcap armies, anyways. Might as well since a decent amount of USF's popcap goes to clutter you kind of need around...
4 Dec 2014, 22:55 PM
#11
Posts: 249
I'm all pro-reduce-US-units-pop-all-around. I don't think blobbing is an issue.
MP bleed is what falters high popcap armies, anyways. Might as well since a decent amount of USF's popcap goes to clutter you kind of need around...
The problem we are talking about most often appears in a game where the fronts are pretty dug in, so i doubt manpower will be a problem. But in this instance, blobbing, and a giant army of enemies IS a problem. I think Romeos idea of Buffing the Units a little is pretty godd, or at least giving the jackson a little more armor, so it actually has a chance against German heavies, and doesnt get oneshotet by Kingtigers.
Deputy Vice-President of the Angry Bears Clan!
4 Dec 2014, 23:00 PM
#12
Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2
Relic said that their idea was to create situation 3v1 - 3 Shermans vs 1 Tiger.
So 6 Shermans vs 2 Tigers is something like 72 vs 48 so it's 28 left for inf vs 52. Oh wait... Officers
So 6 Shermans vs 2 Tigers is something like 72 vs 48 so it's 28 left for inf vs 52. Oh wait... Officers
4 Dec 2014, 23:17 PM
#13
4 Posts: 550 | Subs: 1
There are some units who's pop cap requirement seems too high.
1) For instance the pack-howie costs 480 manpower and will use up 11 pop cap although it should function as a slightly better mortar. That it can also damage vehicles is nice but it's too inaccurate to pose a serious threat. The same goes for the OKW isg.
2) The major needs 5 pop cap (if I recall correctly).
3) IR pathfinders are purely recon units but have a high pop cap requirement.
Other than the listed exceptions and maybe one or two that I forgot, I don't see a problem with the pop cap.
1) For instance the pack-howie costs 480 manpower and will use up 11 pop cap although it should function as a slightly better mortar. That it can also damage vehicles is nice but it's too inaccurate to pose a serious threat. The same goes for the OKW isg.
2) The major needs 5 pop cap (if I recall correctly).
3) IR pathfinders are purely recon units but have a high pop cap requirement.
Other than the listed exceptions and maybe one or two that I forgot, I don't see a problem with the pop cap.
Help test the USF teching adjustment mod: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1553135357
4 Dec 2014, 23:25 PM
#14
Posts: 818
I think its best to go unit by unit in this instance to see where changes can be made
8 pop LT hes basically a rifle squad 7 popcap seems fair
8 pop CT A terrible squad for the cost and pop aside from other changes that should be made =< 7
5 pop Major No combat capacity 3 popcap he either caps or stands idol all game
4 pop ambulance again no combat capacity why not put it at 3 so pop is the same decrewed
8 pop Pathfinders discuss http://www.coh2.org/topic/27842/do-pathfinders-need-to-be-2-pop
14 pop Jackson, a p4 costs the exact same as a generalist and is 12 popcap how about 12 popcap
12 pop sherman again p4 is 12 pocap sherman can be 11
After doing this we have shaved 8 pop off USF thats signifigant a free rifle squad and the vet 1 guy on a RE squad
Additionally I believe Kt should be 30-34 popcap and panther should be 18 popcap
Could also potentially just make the ambulance and each officer model(not squad) cost 0 popcap would be neat but this and other suggestions would be redesigning popcap which i don't have tons of ideas on and don't know if relic would be into that
8 pop LT hes basically a rifle squad 7 popcap seems fair
8 pop CT A terrible squad for the cost and pop aside from other changes that should be made =< 7
5 pop Major No combat capacity 3 popcap he either caps or stands idol all game
4 pop ambulance again no combat capacity why not put it at 3 so pop is the same decrewed
8 pop Pathfinders discuss http://www.coh2.org/topic/27842/do-pathfinders-need-to-be-2-pop
14 pop Jackson, a p4 costs the exact same as a generalist and is 12 popcap how about 12 popcap
12 pop sherman again p4 is 12 pocap sherman can be 11
After doing this we have shaved 8 pop off USF thats signifigant a free rifle squad and the vet 1 guy on a RE squad
Additionally I believe Kt should be 30-34 popcap and panther should be 18 popcap
Could also potentially just make the ambulance and each officer model(not squad) cost 0 popcap would be neat but this and other suggestions would be redesigning popcap which i don't have tons of ideas on and don't know if relic would be into that
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4 Dec 2014, 23:40 PM
#15
Posts: 2070
I think its best to go unit by unit in this instance to see where changes can be made
8 pop LT hes basically a rifle squad 7 popcap seems fair
8 pop CT A terrible squad for the cost and pop aside from other changes that should be made =< 7
5 pop Major No combat capacity 3 popcap he either caps or stands idol all game
4 pop ambulance again no combat capacity why not put it at 3 so pop is the same decrewed
8 pop Pathfinders discuss http://www.coh2.org/topic/27842/do-pathfinders-need-to-be-2-pop
14 pop Jackson, a p4 costs the exact same as a generalist and is 12 popcap how about 12 popcap
12 pop sherman again p4 is 12 pocap sherman can be 11
After doing this we have shaved 8 pop off USF thats signifigant a free rifle squad and the vet 1 guy on a RE squad
Additionally I believe Kt should be 30-34 popcap and panther should be 18 popcap
Could also potentially just make the ambulance and each officer model(not squad) cost 0 popcap would be neat but this and other suggestions would be redesigning popcap which i don't have tons of ideas on and don't know if relic would be into that
i agree with honey
Axis doesn't have the best AT options in the game
4 Dec 2014, 23:51 PM
#16
Posts: 140
I hate the pop caps at the current level. I am not quite sure what purpose it serves. I think it screws with long games where players are successful at unit preservation.
It might force you to trade your units, but if you have a lot of units you're getting punished by manpower upkeep anyway.
Of course it might also be there to prevent the game from being too hard on people's systems, but one extra tank would hardly break that...
It might force you to trade your units, but if you have a lot of units you're getting punished by manpower upkeep anyway.
Of course it might also be there to prevent the game from being too hard on people's systems, but one extra tank would hardly break that...
4 Dec 2014, 23:53 PM
#17
Posts: 2280 | Subs: 2
Permanently BannedI think the EXTREME usf mp bleed is a much larger issue.
5 rifles 1 para 189mp income
5 volks 2 sturms 219mp income
5 rifles 1 para 189mp income
5 volks 2 sturms 219mp income
There is no recording in all WW2 history of a piat actually knocking off a vehicle. Yes, it was THAT bad.
5 Dec 2014, 01:12 AM
#18
Posts: 824
I think the EXTREME usf mp bleed is a much larger issue.
5 rifles 1 para 189mp income
5 volks 2 sturms 219mp income
But the Rifles and Para would win in that engagement right? Especially with Bars/Thompsons/M1919.
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5 Dec 2014, 14:17 PM
#19
Posts: 1158
I agree with Hon3ynuts. I VERY often find myself pop capped with a nothing really special kind of army and it's insufficient to deal with what my opponents can throw at me. So what happens is I can outmicro people of lesser ability and those equal to me or greater will stomp or wear me out.
The higher effeciency axis units are not well represented by their in-game costs and the lower efficiency USF units are over-represented. Paras use a lot of pop and now with their officer bonuses stripped, they are not more than riflemen with different vet and different armament choices. It's pretty common in some team games for me to hit max pop and then float 2 or 3 thousand while my opponents play catch up in army value. I don't think USF can play the same throw it away game the soviets can in a lot of extended situations.
Yes, we shouldn't have to exploit getting out of our 2 or 3 vehicles to get an extra squad.
The higher effeciency axis units are not well represented by their in-game costs and the lower efficiency USF units are over-represented. Paras use a lot of pop and now with their officer bonuses stripped, they are not more than riflemen with different vet and different armament choices. It's pretty common in some team games for me to hit max pop and then float 2 or 3 thousand while my opponents play catch up in army value. I don't think USF can play the same throw it away game the soviets can in a lot of extended situations.
Yes, we shouldn't have to exploit getting out of our 2 or 3 vehicles to get an extra squad.
29 Jul 2014, 12:16 PM by siuking666:
T34/76 is NOT a joke on my hands; Maybe on your hands you make it suck shit? but on me, No. I can kill a stug with a little micro, go toe to toe with a Panzer 4. Is it a joke? LOL T34/85 is apparently a very good tank. But no one says it "one hit wipe" or elefant penetration; up to a point i think this little medium tank just have too much health and too much firepower with that fuel cost.
5 Dec 2014, 14:53 PM
#20
Posts: 117
I would reduce pop cap on some of the units mentioned in this thread before throwing around buffs
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