OKW, the root of most balance issues?

The OKW is one of the most popular, if not the most played faction in COH2. With their introduction into the game, Relic introduced many unique mechanics and concepts. The OKW units have the ability to reach vet 5, which give them incredible scaling throughout the game. The faction suffers from reduced fuel and muni incomes which reflects the abysmal state Nazi Germany was in in 1944 and 1945. The OKW also have a different playstyle, with mobile trucks that can be planted anywhere. These trucks give special benefits such as muni and fuel transfer, healing, free repairs, etc. The faction can also deploy some of the most powerful tanks in the game, the fearsome King Tiger and mighty Jagdtiger.

It is in the opinion of this author that the introduction of OKW's mechanics greatly affected the overall balance of the game. With the amount of unique things the OKW brought, it became difficult to balance this faction in relation to other factions. There were many unintended consequences such as the Kubelwagen being viciously strong, 100 percent muni income affecting team games, and the current frustrations with massed schrecks on Volksgrenadiers.

It seems that most balance changes are done due to a particular units relationship to the OKW. It almost appears that the OKW dictate the direction of balance, particularly due to the extreme late-game power of the faction and how it handles reduced resources.

Taking a page from fellow community member Exsile, the author believes that Ostheer suffer the most due to these balance changes. The Ostheer have a linear power curve; they have a fairly stiff and static early-game but become a potent faction in the latter stages of the game. While Ostheer vs Soviet matchups seem decently balance (these factions have their own issues too), even the USF seem to be balanced when encountering the Ostheer (although the USF pummel the Ostheer in the early-game).

In closing, the OKW's mechanics make it extreme hard to balance the game. Attempts to remedy these issues are difficult to come by due to the OKW's unique themes such as reduced resource incomes, vet 5 veterancy, and faction design. These often lead to unintended consequences, with the Ostheer being hurt the most.

Do the players believe the OKW are a main cause for many of the game's balance issues?

fucks sake owk is the worst faction with all they have is a puma jagdpanzer until they have a panther

OKW i think doesnt represent germanys situation during 1944

Wehr should get larger squad sizes

OKW squads should be smaller (It makes no sense that fussies are 6man units)

Volks should be 4 men while grens should be 5

Also OKW support weapons suck.

So they mass infantry

To be fair. USF can blob rifles hard and mass mediums tanks when done correctly.

But in generall i disagree, OKW itself isnt OP

Specific units need looking at

Ex: Stuka, Obers, shrek accuracy,

And they need a greater reliance on team weapons

Buff reketen and infantry support gun

OKW's design doesn't really make that much sense to me. They have reduced resource incomes but it doesn't seem to matter that much. A puma can arrive in about 6 minutes. A luchs can arrive on the field in about 10 minutes. A panther arrives in about 17. This is actually faster than Ostheer can field a panther. In fact if Ostheer attempts to field a panther they will probably lose.

After the first vehicle purchase however they have to wait a long time for a second vehicle as the resource penalty kicks in. This results in them having a zillion manpower to spend but no fuel to get more vehicles.

Since they have this surplus of manpower, a lot of units cost only manpower since it would be impossible to maintain their army otherwise. Obersoldaten are the biggest offender in that regard.

This makes holding territory considerably less important for OKW than other factions. That's why rushing straight for an enemy cutoff at the start of a game rather than back-capping is so effective.

That's where the big error is in my opinion. In a game that is almost entirely about capturing and holding territory, one faction doesn't actually need to capture and hold territory as badly as the others.

I am definitely not the first person to suggest that maybe instead OKW should have a manpower penalty instead of a fuel and munitions penalty. They will have fewer units, but the focus on map control will be restored and the focus on unit preservation will be higher than ever.

I am definitely not the first person to suggest that maybe instead OKW should have a manpower penalty instead of a fuel and munitions penalty. They will have fewer units, but the focus on map control will be restored and the focus on unit preservation will be higher than ever.

I suspect a lot of flack incoming. But Relic would need to fix a lot of one-shotting mechanics so precious vet doesnt vanish at a click of a button.

I disagree about a mp penalty. Just force em to pay for thier upgrades

Ober lmg should cost 90muni for how good it is

OKW's design doesn't really make that much sense to me. They have reduced resource incomes but it doesn't seem to matter that much. A puma can arrive in about 6 minutes. A luchs can arrive on the field in about 10 minutes. A panther arrives in about 17. This is actually faster than Ostheer can field a panther. In fact if Ostheer attempts to field a panther they will probably lose.

After the first vehicle purchase however they have to wait a long time for a second vehicle as the resource penalty kicks in. This results in them having a zillion manpower to spend but no fuel to get more vehicles.

Since they have this surplus of manpower, a lot of units cost only manpower since it would be impossible to maintain their army otherwise. Obersoldaten are the biggest offender in that regard.

This makes holding territory considerably less important for OKW than other factions. That's why rushing straight for an enemy cutoff at the start of a game rather than back-capping is so effective.

That's where the big error is in my opinion. In a game that is almost entirely about capturing and holding territory, one faction doesn't actually need to capture and hold territory as badly as the others.

I am definitely not the first person to suggest that maybe instead OKW should have a manpower penalty instead of a fuel and munitions penalty. They will have fewer units, but the focus on map control will be restored and the focus on unit preservation will be higher than ever.

Making them such a gimmicky army in the first place was a large mistake. And actually I feel like even USF could stand to be slightly more "conventional" in its core unit structure. Lacking core units like mortars and standard MGs in the early game always felt wrong, even back with Brits and PE in CoH1.

Making them such a gimmicky army in the first place was a large mistake. And actually I feel like even USF could stand to be slightly more "conventional" in its core unit structure. Lacking core units like mortars and standard MGs in the early game always felt wrong, even back with Brits and PE in CoH1.

I agree here, new ways to play are nice, but gimmicks are less so when they hinder your ability. OKW's cripples-and-crutches design makes them needlessly complex to balance. The choice to not give them a medium tank has severely exacerbated the problem. So to compensate, their cheapest unit gets the best handheld AT and they get a super-squad who's killing ability outclasses snipers. Yeah, we got a problem.

OKW has few very specific issues:

- The Volks by themselves arent OP. The stupid amount of XP they get once upgraded with a Shcrek is the reason for them rushing to Vet5 by 15-20 mins, and then becoming invincible blobs of cheap destruction vs ALL UNITS USF has i.e. Infantry, Light and Med Armor. Try and play with Volks without Schrek upgrade and not only will they take forever to Vet up, but then without the Vet bonuses they suck, hard. [So: Reduce the absurd XP gain Volks get with Schreks and the problem is mitigated. As its the Vet bonuses that make them absurd - and getting to Vet 5 is currently a cakewalk]

- There is a great thread on the long range efficacy of panzerschrek. However, if that is nerfed along with the above change to Volks Vetting, the OKW desperately need the Raken buffed, oh so slightly, theyre not as bad as people make them out to be (Id say a slightly wider arc and slightly quicker reload).

- Obers with LMG are absurdly good. For a MP only unit, they volley off 2-3 squad members inside first burst. Either their LMG upgrade needs to be purchased AND/OR long range damage needs a nerf.

- I cant say about Soviets, but USF has no way to counter Panther/Tiger without using the Airborne Strafe. This cant be acceptable that a single commander's ultimate power is the ONLY viable counter v/s Heavy OKW Armor. (This problem is shared with OSTH and is more about USF's lack of Heavy Armor counter.)

- The penetration of the Flak Truck needs a nerf vs Medium Armor, Period. It punches through Sherman like it punches through Riflemen. Absurd. Once its put down, that region of the map is a done deal. Leading to the final point.

Finally, Overall as Romeo puts its, its far too easy for a OKW to sit around the 3-4 territories protected by his mobile trucks, and churn out Volks+Pschreks, Obers, which frankly by themselves can easily win games, but then ofcourse hes just waiting for the God Tanks to arrive. Which is why you see far too often 'OKW comebacks'. There is no 'comeback', its either a super early Luch or Panther that once it hits the field, just flips the game on its head amplified by the Volks+Ober blobs.

OKW needs nerf, with a hammer.

For once I see reasonable discussion about OKW but then again no other factions suffer from squad wipes (which happens way too frequently since last cover patch).

I was watching Von play OKW yesterday, and two lag spikes that led to loss of 4 vet squads quickly led to his loss even though he was in a winning momentum. No other faction goes from winning to losing a lategame purely because of RNG squad wipe.

This is mostly due to OKW lacking MP-only AT that does not get countered by vehicles. Raketens die in 1 shot from he shots these days. Once enemy manages to maintain an armor force and wait for those inevitable squad wipes, OKW will lose no matter how well he played due to inability to re-train volks/equip shrek/gain vet.

The surest sign of losing OKW is 2+ raketens.

Reduce the absurd XP gain Volks get with Schreks and the problem is mitigated. As its the Vet bonuses that make them absurd - and getting to Vet 5 is currently a cakewalk

It's been said before, due to the way veterancy works, this is impossible.

Do the players believe the OKW are a main cause for many of the game's balance issues?

Long story short: no.

This makes holding territory considerably less important for OKW than other factions. That's why rushing straight for an enemy cutoff at the start of a game rather than back-capping is so effective.

That's where the big error is in my opinion. In a game that is almost entirely about capturing and holding territory, one faction doesn't actually need to capture and hold territory as badly as the others.

I disagree, this game is mainly about keeping your stuff alive while killing/wiping as much of your enemie's. Holding and capping teritory is secondary to that. And that's why OKW gets the longer the better, good unit preservation is way more rewarded with this faction than it is with others.

OKW has few very specific issues:

- The Volks by themselves arent OP. The stupid amount of XP they get once upgraded with a Shcrek is the reason for them rushing to Vet5 by 15-20 mins, and then becoming invincible blobs of cheap destruction vs ALL UNITS USF has i.e. Infantry, Light and Med Armor. Try and play with Volks without Schrek upgrade and not only will they take forever to Vet up, but then without the Vet bonuses they suck, hard. [So: Reduce the absurd XP gain Volks get with Schreks and the problem is mitigated. As its the Vet bonuses that make them absurd - and getting to Vet 5 is currently a cakewalk]

I disagree, I'd rather alter the vet bonusses they get. Having a 5-man squad gaining even more survivability with vet is too much.

- There is a great thread on the long range efficacy of panzerschrek. However, if that is nerfed along with the above change to Volks Vetting, the OKW desperately need the Raken buffed, oh so slightly, theyre not as bad as people make them out to be (Id say a slightly wider arc and slightly quicker reload).

Remember that a Shreck nerf also directly hits Ostheer which only recently got the Pak 40 nerfed...

- Obers with LMG are absurdly good. For a MP only unit, they volley off 2-3 squad members inside first burst. Either their LMG upgrade needs to be purchased AND/OR long range damage needs a nerf.

I'd rather give them two lmgs and split the dps, see how that works. Imo the 1919 and lmg34 are still too potent.

- I cant say about Soviets, but USF has no way to counter Panther/Tiger without using the Airborne Strafe. This cant be acceptable that a single commander's ultimate power is the ONLY viable counter v/s Heavy OKW Armor. (This problem is shared with OSTH and is more about USF's lack of Heavy Armor counter.)

I disagree. Jacksons can hold any Ostheer armour at bay, so can double AT-Guns. Tbh I think the USF AT-Gun is very underestimated and underused (giving it an actula hold fire ability would make it even stronger). I find the absence of a decent mine why more limiting.

- The penetration of the Flak Truck needs a nerf vs Medium Armor, Period. It punches through Sherman like it punches through Riflemen. Absurd. Once its put down, that region of the map is a done deal. Leading to the final point.

Agree, the dmg done to medium vehicles is too high. I guess lowering the pen value of the Flakgun should solve this Issue.

Finally, Overall as Romeo puts its, its far too easy for a OKW to sit around the 3-4 territories protected by his mobile trucks, and churn out Volks+Pschreks, Obers, which frankly by themselves can easily win games, but then ofcourse hes just waiting for the God Tanks to arrive. Which is why you see far too often 'OKW comebacks'. There is no 'comeback', its either a super early Luch or Panther that once it hits the field, just flips the game on its head amplified by the Volks+Ober blobs.

OKW needs nerf, with a hammer.

This only applies for USF because they lack artillery. Whenever I encounter a OKW player as Sov, and he puts up his trucks aggressively he'll get artillerized back to the stone age.


Overall I don't see the OKW as the source of all evil. I guess the main Issues are listed here, apart from that I find them to be a very entertaining faction to play with and against, also very diverse and not call-in dependant at all.

Which leads to the main problem I see; the other factions need some spice.

-USF, Should get mines and some reliable arty (scott, pack howitzer barrage that actually does something)

-OH, needs some serious buffs and the teching needs to be adjusted so t4 becomes accesable.

-Sov, well.... where to start... If their core units could just not suck I'd be sooo happy ^^ (most disappointing and boring faction so far)

Let's keep our minds on the topic. Do not bait the troll.

I disagree. Jacksons can hold any Ostheer armour at bay, so can double AT-Guns. Tbh I think the USF AT-Gun is very underestimated and underused (giving it an actula hold fire ability would make it even stronger). I find the absence of a decent mine why more limiting.

Everybody goes for M20, still the best AT mine is rarely used

That's rather a complicated issue. I'm pretty sure that if OKW receives some nerfs, the soviets will steamroll everything. So I'd rather fix USF, make some changes or give them something to keep pace in late game. This would probably balance things. I don't think that in team games if Allied team plays soviets only they have such huge resistance problems no matter if they fight against Ostheer or OKW. So I believe the answer to this question is provided by team games: Fix USF first and check balance again after fixing.