Ostheer Teching: Inefficient vs USF?

Ostheer tech is fine (changing BP3 and T4 fuel cost would be the only necessary choice). Maybe reducing T1's construction speed could help to field units faster.

Maps and uncounterable Ostheer defensive line is the real problem here...and ofc the call-ins.

Isn't the problem that all early game units come out of t0 for OKW and USF, but Ost and Soviets (besides pure con start) are linked to teching for t1?

As in the timing in the early early game is odd between the arrival of early game units because of that. I think a lot of problems originate there. A lazy fix would be link building cons of hq to t1 or t2 tech and add a little starting mp for sovs and ost.

^Why not add grens to the T0?

I think every faction should have it's baseline infantry tied to t0 rather than T1.

Poll offers too many options when you are only allowed to vote for one of them.

It is obvious that Soviets and Ostheer are in disadvantage regarding their teching structure right now in comparison to OKW and USA. While OKW has the resource disadvantage justifying a lot of the tradeoffs and specialities of the faction, USA gets free units and further freedom in their teching structure without any apparent justification (apart from desirable faction diversity and the traditional "asymmetric balance" argument; I leave it to everyone to judge for themselves how well done the balance is right now).

The officers are not "free units", they carry 21 pop(more than 20% of the total popcap) worth of upkeep drain on US manpower income that goes on all game . In addition US have the most expensive mainline infantry with the highest upkeep/reinforcement cost, the highest fuel wall(65 after deducting starting fuel, compared to 0 for Sov/OKW, whatever BP1+T2 fuel cost is for OST) compared to 50) in front of its AT gun,the least amount of starting fuel(15 vs 40/50).

These and the lack of heavy armor are the justification for the US tech structure.

The officers are not "free units", they carry 21 pop(more than 20% of the total popcap) worth of upkeep drain on US manpower income that goes on all game . In addition US have the most expensive mainline infantry with the highest upkeep/reinforcement cost, the highest fuel wall(80) in front of its AT gun,the least amount of starting fuel(15 vs 40/50).

These and the lack of heavy armor are the justification for the US tech structure.

You don't have to get all of them in most games and at least the most commonly picked Lt is a good combat unit. And yes they can be considered free see you get a unit with teching. It'd would be if Soviets got a free elite-semi elite squad if they built one of their structures. They share a similarity with the OKW trucks who get the arguably more useful healing, repairs, and the flak cannon. Only thing that Ost gets for free is access to the rifle grenade and removing the gate from purchasing LMGs(and flame track).

T1 to t2 building teching ostheer is the biggest problem imo in manpower terms when facing USF-u knwo usf light vehicle is coming so HAVE to go t2-but 320 extra mp for nothing while ur alreday struggling against the rifle hordes which grens can't stand upto.Now u are forced into thsi handicap while he gets free lieutenant-main fuckup for ostheer and why its so weak vs usf.

You get 150/25 value from rifle nades and 150/15 for LMGs when you tech (assuming they are comparable to the USF ones). So then your only paying like 50 manpower and 20 fuel to unlock the rest.

However getting all this stuff at once is completely useless and makes you lose almost the whole map vs USF, especially considering you have a 60 fuel gate just to get mediocre units that you need to fight USF vehicles

Tier comes at an alright time so the fuel cost is ok, but the manpower costs for all these things that give you virtually no imediate benifit is way too high. They should also look into making the 221 a better unit since its ok for the cost but its like a t1 unit coming out of t2(also it needs attack ground)

Also most of Ostheer tech costs too much MP generally speaking. You don't get any benifits for unlocking t3/4 but it still costs a ton more manpower than every other faction, fuel costs are ok though IMO though b/c nothing comes too fast or too slow, you just sacrifice so many units when you tech.

This is an ostheer problem, its just less obvious when they face soviets b/c you can get more t1 units in that matchup. Fix them then look at USF if its still an issue

I would rather advocate a much stronger 222 in tier 2 that can stand its ground to usf LT tree

I think every faction should have it's baseline infantry tied to t0 rather than T1.

They tried this when they gave Pioneers real MP 40's, but people went apeshit and they were nerfed again. Maybe if they bumped up the accuracy slightly from .35 to .45 and updated the weapon profile?

people went ape shit because engineers and conscripts were still shit.

^Why not add grens to the T0?

I think every faction should have it's baseline infantry tied to t0 rather than T1.

The problem with this would be that it would negate conscript starts from the soviets, as you could get the same amount of grens out 30mp slower. Currently, the only advantage cons have is numbers, so I think that this would just end up screwing balance. Not to mention that this would allow for easier t0->t2 starts for super fast lmgs for your grens.

The problem with this would be that it would negate conscript starts from the soviets, as you could get the same amount of grens out 30mp slower. Currently, the only advantage cons have is numbers, so I think that this would just end up screwing balance. Not to mention that this would allow for easier t0->t2 starts for super fast lmgs for your grens.

Well that would be the idea, vs USF you want Pgrens you want 222s and you want paks,that's why it would make T0>t2 viable and so reduce the early game impact of the m20, but I don't think cons would be screwed, hoora! is there for that, cons at close range still win against grens, it's time that the soviet start using that ammo instead of piling it up for mines/mark targets.

But I can see lmgs being a problem, perhaps in case of this change split up the tech costs like it's for usf teching up and bars upgrades?

They should really make the Panzerfaust tied to the unit as well so Osttruppen -> T2 starts can be viable.

yeah. the ONLY time the t1 requirement comes into play with grens is if you lose t1 but it has a HUGE impact with osttruppen. making it not require anything would have little affect on current balance but would make osttruppen without t1 viable.

222 feels like shit but if properly microed it can deal alot of dmg, but the problem is and i agree that it has really light armor it feels like 222=kubel in some degree except its easier to destroy 222 cause its bigger... a slight increase in armor would be nice, but would usf have to go zooks or captain always then, cause 222 would get on field too early? There was another thread with light vehicle life span too short cause of medium tanks / heavies coming too soon into the game cause of fuel trucks and point upgrades...

The 222 is supposed to be Ostheer's counter to light vehicles but it doesn't very effectively counter USF light vehicles. It's okay against the M20, but can definitely lose against it.

The 222 is supposed to be Ostheer's counter to light vehicles but it doesn't very effectively counter USF light vehicles. It's okay against the M20, but can definitely lose against it.

No one bothers with it by and large,unless there are sov snipers on the field.Its crap for its teching cost.Can't counter allied light vehicles which is main purpose of t2 ,wehrmacht further deprived of mobility as a faction due to this and forced into turtle mode-already long range grens and mg 42s don't promote any aggression.Then pak nerf- wehrmacht purposedly hobbled to be a punching bag hoping to survive,this was not the case in coh 1 where if u got vet 2 grens by upgrade u could hold ur own and even attack.

OH T4 is still too expensive IMO. Its better to wait for a tiger, then teching for a panther. But lets wait what relic is doing with the call-in system

OH T4 is still too expensive IMO. Its better to wait for a tiger, then teching for a panther. But lets wait what relic is doing with the call-in system

That's gonna be one hell of a wait

The 222 is supposed to be Ostheer's counter to light vehicles but it doesn't very effectively counter USF light vehicles. It's okay against the M20, but can definitely lose against it.

Moreover - 222 has big size( the model itself) and slow vehicle rotation. The root of its stupidity pathing I believe.

So if Relic would change its armor, size and vehicle rotation Ostheer had a threat to USrifles.