Realistic symbols/flags.

The Swastika isn't banned in the UK, Canada and the US which is where the CoH franchise has made most of its capital, so if Relic were to add swastikas(I wouldn't want them on vehicles since most German vehicles had the iron cross on it instead of Swastikas) I really can't see it affecting the franchise. Relic already pissed off the Russians and no amount of pandering is going to win them back, so it's pointless to appease them, and there's not enough Germans(Countries where the Swastika is banned) that play this game, where it will impact the longevity of the franchise.

Anyways, it's important to note that Relic is a Canadian developer and as such there is no law here in Canada that prohibits someone from displaying Nazi imagery both in public and in private. I could raise a Nazi flag on my front yard and it would be legal. So really, there's literally nothing stopping Relic from adding Swastikas to the game- they've just chosen not to since I think they were trying to market this game to Russians, but it obviously backfired

I have to agree that my post was too shallow, wanted to keep it as easy as possible to understand, that's the reason. I'm also history entusiast myself and I undersand what you mean. Still Adolf Hitler (why was mad by your words) is the main creator of the system and his work "Main Kampf" is strongly connected to it. And the book is not only about unity, but mostly about killing and agression. And that's only one reason. The other is for example the fact that the ideology was so blinding that germans believed that mad man and gave him power, its understandable that ppl are afraid of it even now.

@REforever
Just look at the coh2 community, more than 20% of users here are german. And it's not that they could choose weather they want to play a game with nazi symbols or not (like russians could) but such game would be banned in Germany and even if not straight away after the verdict of a court so they would have to stop playing...

The Swastika isn't banned in the UK, Canada and the US which is where the CoH franchise has made most of its capital, so if Relic were to add swastikas(I wouldn't want them on vehicles since most German vehicles had the iron cross on it instead of Swastikas) I really can't see it affecting the franchise. Relic already pissed off the Russians and no amount of pandering is going to win them back, so it's pointless to appease them, and there's not enough Germans(Countries where the Swastika is banned) that play this game, where it will impact the longevity of the franchise.

Anyways, it's important to note that Relic is a Canadian developer and as such there is no law here in Canada that prohibits someone from displaying Nazi imagery both in public and in private. I could raise a Nazi flag on my front yard and it would be legal. So really, there's literally nothing stopping Relic from adding Swastikas to the game- they've just chosen not to since I think they were trying to market this game to Russians, but it obviously backfired

Germany is still a market of 80 million people. In sales for coh2 that is a couple of thousand games, commanders and other p2w stuff not getting sold because they went with swastikas instead of the iron cross.
A slight artistic change or less monies? Any company that goes with the latter isn't doing what it is supposed to be doing. And yes the one and only reason for any company to exist is to generate revenue.
They are responsible primarily to their investors and shareholders NOT their customers.

Germany is still a market of 80 million people. In sales for coh2 that is a couple of thousand games, commanders and other p2w stuff not getting sold because they went with swastikas instead of the iron cross.
A slight artistic change or less monies? Any company that goes with the latter isn't doing what it is supposed to be doing. And yes the one and only reason for any company to exist is to generate revenue.
They are responsible primarily to their investors and shareholders NOT their customers.

Again, a POTENTIAL market of 80 million people. Do you care to take a guess as to where the CoH franchise has made most of its capital? The UK, Canada and the US or Germany, France and Russia? I'll place my bet on the former. Please be realistic here, most people who bought CoH2 are from Canada, the UK and the US and I'd be willing to wager that the sales from Germany, Russia and etc are very small compared to UK and North American sales. Relic won't lose anything if they chose not to sell CoH2 in Russia and Germany, since the potential markets there are abysmal at best.

You need to understand that those symbols are not banned because of countries that used them and because of things that those countries did but becouse of ideology that is behind them. Nazism is about killing people, or even whole races. Communism is about equality (in its bases it's very positive and has nothing to do with totalitarianism, it was just directed the wrong way). And thats what makes symbols of those ideologies treated in different ways.

Disclaimer: Im not nazi, anti-nazi, communist or anti-communist.

Sigh. *Unsubscribes thread*

Its funny how someone that asking for realstic symbols and uniforms is called immediately a nazi..

One year ago I saw a person at school walking around with a t-shirt with a Hammer and Sickle on it. Would love to see sometone do that with a swastika on it..

Some people like realistic symbols in war games...

Its funny how someone that asking for realstic symbols and uniforms is called immediately a nazi..

One year ago I saw a person at school walking around with a t-shirt with a Hammer and Sickle on it. Would love to see sometone do that with a swastika on it..

Some people like realistic symbols in war games...

Hmm in fact I love realism too, for example when I first played coh I couldn't understand why there are those player coloured camoes on tanks... And the symbols are great too. I just don't want a playerbase to shrink and I don't belive in company like relic would break such law. But if there was a mod like for vcoh I would give it a try.

Again, a POTENTIAL market of 80 million people. Do you care to take a guess as to where the CoH franchise has made most of its capital? The UK, Canada and the US or Germany, France and Russia? I'll place my bet on the former. Please be realistic here, most people who bought CoH2 are from Canada, the UK and the US and I'd be willing to wager that the sales from Germany, Russia and etc are very small compared to UK and North American sales. Relic won't lose anything if they chose not to sell CoH2 in Russia and Germany, since the potential markets there are abysmal at best.

As I've said it is not much but there is still something. And it would show up as sales not done. Even if by just 0,2% it is too much for what is perceived as a very small adjustment.

Oh hey. Another super productive thread regarding swastikas on everything because the Axis factions aren't German enough.

Seriously, argue all you want. Relic is not going to add these themselves because its extremely redundant. Wait for the modding support, and then you can be mildly satisfied.

To the OP - You are completely wrong.

I want to play with factions that represent honorable, professional armies and citizen soldiers. I don't want to play with factions that represent inhuman, merciless, death squads.

I don't think I would have purchased the game if it were littered with swastikas. 20 years ago, when I was younger, I had the same attitude as you: it's just a game. However, after year of study on the subject, traveling throughout Germany, and visiting some pretty grim places, I don't want to be associated with it, or take any pleasure from it, or desensitize it.

To me there is no up side:

It would attract more than its share wacko's
It would not make the game more marketable
It would not make the game more fun

First things first: Some of you are working very hard to get this post closed.

Second of all: Symbolism is all too real. The issue is not of political correctness, but of human nature. The creation, recognition, and use of symbols in human communication is fundamental. It's called semiotics, and it has to do with "meaning making."

There are real laws in place, and there are real people whose families, lives, and well being were harmed by Nazi Germany. Should they be marginalized in the name of "realism" or "anti-political correctness"?

Your tone deafness is immediately apparent because you have named yourself after the SS, a wing of the Nazi party responsible for the mass murder of millions of people. If you enjoy historical references to actual army units, there are many you could have chosen without associating yourself with psychopathic murders. Was every SS member a murder? No, but you are not doing yourself or the world any good by naming yourself in such a way.

COH2 is an arcade game, not a simulator, and not a historical account of the war. You should tread lightly when asking for Nazi party imagery to be used in a game, especially with its popularity in both Germany and Russia. Two countries who know better than most about the atrocities committed (BY BOTH SIDES) and the effect they have on the people who make up their communities.

I disagree with your point when it comes to the applications in-game. WW2 affected many people, but those who don't want to be hurt by its imagery should not be playing a game which is about exactly that. You're not flaunting the icons in public, you're not forcing it on people, the only people exposed to it are the players actually playing the game. It's absolutely ridiculous to get offended by a swastika in a video game when you are fully aware of what the game is depicting. You are commanding SS troops and other units guilty of war crimes in all but name, yet somehow the icon of a swastika would offend you?

So why not just add an option you can turn on/off?

Also, building your whole online persona around a name like SS Panzer Division is kind of stupid.

Ohmesums it all well very nicely....

if you want want swastikas i am pretty sure there is/will be mods for that

I disagree with your point when it comes to the applications in-game. WW2 affected many people, but those who don't want to be hurt by its imagery should not be playing a game which is about exactly that. You're not flaunting the icons in public, you're not forcing it on people, the only people exposed to it are the players actually playing the game. It's absolutely ridiculous to get offended by a swastika in a video game when you are fully aware of what the game is depicting. You are commanding SS troops and other units guilty of war crimes in all but name, yet somehow the icon of a swastika would offend you?

So why not just add an option you can turn on/off?

Also, building your whole online persona around a name like SS Panzer Division is kind of stupid.

the swatstika is banned in Germany (except for historical purposes iirc). The game cannot be sold in Germany if the swastika is in it. I am certain a fairly significant number of players are German. It would be unfair and unwise to marginalize all of them for the sake of showing a swastika.

They won't ever do this because that would break the law in some countries where the game is sold (for example in Germany). Some games like Silent Hunter V had those symbols at the beginning but those were removed when it started to couse problems.

On the other hand with mod support that we have now you can do it yourself or find appropriate mod on steam.

Plenty of games just use alternate textures for German laws.

There's no reason they couldn't use the current textures for Germany, and more historically accurate ones for everyone else. Much like how Wolfenstein did it.

Second of all: Symbolism is all too real. The issue is not of political correctness, but of human nature. The creation, recognition, and use of symbols in human communication is fundamental. It's called semiotics, and it has to do with "meaning making."

There are real laws in place, and there are real people whose families, lives, and well being were harmed by Nazi Germany. Should they be marginalized in the name of "realism" or "anti-political correctness"?

What is your point? Yes, the Germans used symbols in WWII, and those symbols should be present in a game depicting them in a historical context. You'd be hard pressed to find a long-standing symbol in human history that doesn't have some terrible atrocities associated with it. What makes nazi symbols any worse than soviet symbols? The campaign directly touches on the issues of Soviet war atrocities for fucks sake.

Your tone deafness is immediately apparent because you have named yourself after the SS, a wing of the Nazi party responsible for the mass murder of millions of people. If you enjoy historical references to actual army units, there are many you could have chosen without associating yourself with psychopathic murders. Was every SS member a murder? No, but you are not doing yourself or the world any good by naming yourself in such a way.

Thinly veiled ad hominem attacks are still attacks at a persons character. I'm not sure about Coh2, but I know the original game certainly has the SS in it.

COH2 is an arcade game, not a simulator, and not a historical account of the war. You should tread lightly when asking for Nazi party imagery to be used in a game, especially with its popularity in both Germany and Russia. Two countries who know better than most about the atrocities committed (BY BOTH SIDES) and the effect they have on the people who make up their communities.

It makes every effort to be historically faithful. Accountings of real companies, real war situations (OKW being late 1944-1945 german forces for example), and the Soviet campaign contending with real war atrocities. Sure, Relic bungled their research for Coh2 but they also went out and did quite a bit of research. Especially in regards to the visual portrayal of uniforms, vehicles and environments.

They didn't shy away from offending Russia, why should they shy away from offending Germany?


Anyway OP, a mod could easily be made to accomplish this if it hasn't already.

Germans didn't used swastika on tanks...

Germans didn't used swastika on tanks...

Not officially, but unofficially swastika flags were not uncommon. Crew painted swastikas also appeared from time-to-time. Swastika flags or paint was also used on the top of the turret for Luftwaffe identification.

The Swastika isn't banned in the UK, Canada and the US which is where the CoH franchise has made most of its capital, so if Relic were to add swastikas(I wouldn't want them on vehicles since most German vehicles had the iron cross on it instead of Swastikas) I really can't see it affecting the franchise.

just because you aren't restrained by law, does not mean you shouldn't restrain yourself.

maybe there are jewish developers in relic, which is very possible

Plenty of games just use alternate textures for German laws.

0. There's no reason they couldn't use the current textures for Germany, and more historically accurate ones for everyone else. Much like how Wolfenstein did it.



1. What is your point? Yes, the Germans used symbols in WWII, and those symbols should be present in a game depicting them in a historical context. You'd be hard pressed to find a long-standing symbol in human history that doesn't have some terrible atrocities associated with it. What makes nazi symbols any worse than soviet symbols? The campaign directly touches on the issues of Soviet war atrocities for fucks sake.





2. Thinly veiled ad hominem attacks are still attacks at a persons character. I'm not sure about Coh2, but I know the original game certainly has the SS in it.



It makes every effort to be historically faithful. Accountings of real companies, real war situations (OKW being late 1944-1945 german forces for example), and the Soviet campaign contending with real war atrocities. Sure, Relic bungled their research for Coh2 but they also went out and did quite a bit of research. Especially in regards to the visual portrayal of uniforms, vehicles and environments.

3. They didn't shy away from offending Russia, why should they shy away from offending Germany?

0. wolfenstein is over the top ridiculous murder-all-nazis fps. because of its such arcade-ness made it more ok imo. while coh2 is technically an arcade, it isn't so trivial like wolfenstein

1. nazism caused the most deadly human conflict and very recently. soviet symbol is just as bad to me, but since they were technically invaded by nazis and that they were allies during the war and existed for longer time, which brainwashed a lot of ppl ( i had a half ukrainian and russian roommate who was defending stalin lol) make them ok i guess. i don't agree with it, but that's just how it goes.

2. all german armed forces was invloved in systematic murder of jews, occupied subjects etc etc. but since it is better to forgive and forget, people generally don't hold grudges against ww2 wehr soldiers etc etc. but what SS, especially ones assigned to guarding death camps and carrying out systematic killings, went too far to be either forgiven or forgotten.

3. that is because russians are very very proud of their nation and history, to put it nicely. i palyed the campaign many times, but it makes superior officers and stalinst government look evil, but noooooooooooooo, even that is too much. you mustn't offend the great bear.

just watch stalingrad(2013) if you want to know how some russians see the war as.






Back to topic: i don't mind current symbols in game. they are really small and look fine to me.

just because you aren't restrained by law, does not mean you shouldn't restrain yourself.

maybe there are jewish developers in relic, which is very possible

Stephen Fry would like a word with you: "It's now very common to hear people say, "I'm rather offended by that", as if that gives them certain rights. It's no more than a whine. It has no meaning, it has no purpose, it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. "I'm offended by that." Well, so fucking what?"

So you're saying that Swastikas(For historical authenticity sake) shouldn't be in CoH2 because there might be jewish people at Relic who might be offended? It's really quite ridiculous that just become someone is offended, that they should be given special privileges. In this case, it's determining what symbols, uniforms and etc can be crafted into the game.

I'd argue that games are an art and thus shouldn't be forced to conform to the poison that is political correctness or various laws the Germans have in place over in their fatherland.

Either way, the solution is very simple. For the Germans and Russians, they can have the censored version while free countries like Canada, the UK, the US and etc can have the uncensored version.

I love history and historical accuracy. Especially WW2. For all the flaws this game has, the one thing it has on me is the WW2 theme.

However, this game throws it, mostly, out the window, which is regrettable in my opinion. To be "offended" by history and to censor it, is unwise and frankly, idiotic.

They want this game to be an e-sport, so I'm sure some bean counter up at the top said hell no to having any swastikas in this game.

I too would still like realistic flags for every nation. I enjoy history, that's that.

0. wolfenstein is over the top ridiculous murder-all-nazis fps. because of its such arcade-ness made it more ok imo. while coh2 is technically an arcade, it isn't so trivial like wolfenstein

You need to justify why it isn't okay for a more serious game to portray WWII Germany accurately. Why can Schindler's List or Band of Brothers do it, but not Company of Heroes?

1. nazism caused the most deadly human conflict and very recently. soviet symbol is just as bad to me, but since they were technically invaded by nazis and that they were allies during the war and existed for longer time, which brainwashed a lot of ppl ( i had a half ukrainian and russian roommate who was defending stalin lol) make them ok i guess. i don't agree with it, but that's just how it goes.

It's easy to point at "nazism" as the cause of WWII, but it's not really accurate. Attributing all the deaths of WWII to Nazism is ridiculous as well. The "good guys" killed lots of people too.

2. all german armed forces was invloved in systematic murder of jews, occupied subjects etc etc. but since it is better to forgive and forget, people generally don't hold grudges against ww2 wehr soldiers etc etc. but what SS, especially ones assigned to guarding death camps and carrying out systematic killings, went too far to be either forgiven or forgotten.

We executed the leadership (who weren't useful to us, such as the scientists.) because we wanted to hold someone responsible. That doesn't lighten the load of everyone else who committed atrocity in WWII and elsewhere. The Soviets raped their way all the way to Berlin, for example. The Japanese treated China in a similar fashion.

3. that is because russians are very very proud of their nation and history, to put it nicely. i palyed the campaign many times, but it makes superior officers and stalinst government look evil, but noooooooooooooo, even that is too much. you mustn't offend the great bear.

just watch stalingrad(2013) if you want to know how some russians see the was as.

Propaganda is a wonderful, scary thing.