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BALANCE FEEDBACK - USF 1v1 Post 100 Games of Automatch

25 Nov 2014, 10:49 AM
#21
avatar of JohnnyB

Posts: 2396 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Nov 2014, 10:33 AMSeolfor
Problem with OSTH 1v1 is how campy it gets. The entire game is about the USF forcing his way through a mega camp of MGs + ATs + Grens + Mortars. Even their P4s and eventual Tigers arent used as 'Tanks' rather much more semi-mobile immortal units of death, sitting behind passive camps that require MINIMAL micro.

- MG planted with arc covering sector, check
- AT gun just behind the MG covering the entry point, check
- Mortar behind the AT, bombarding any attempts to flip VP/Fuel/Ammo, check
- 1-2 Grens, now with LMGs, to rip charging/flanking infantry, along with insta engine hit fausts, check
- P4s or CP based Tiger/Panther, sitting behind it all, check

In any other RTS, you would be labelled a mega-trash newb for camping like 99% Osth players do in 1v1s. Just squat on 1 fuel/ammo/VP with 4 units, then send the blob to take the other. GG.

You lose cause youre bad, you win cause youre a camping git and the game isnt balanced - Fact :D


I see Ostheer far from problematic atm, even for USF. OKW it's another storry but still, I think an USF fix would fix also the balance (hoping of course that Relic won't extra-buff this faction, transforming it into 10 minutes mark win guarantee).
25 Nov 2014, 11:03 AM
#22
avatar of JohnnyB

Posts: 2396 | Subs: 1

Thinking at USF fixing I would dare to propose as a distinct feature, one extra ability for RE which will relay in building a 90 mm AA emplacement reinforced with sandbags, that is good against planes and decent against armor. This way USF will gain an extra help against Axis armor and will represent a threat for Stuka skillplane. This RE ability should be unlocked at 2 or 3 Vet level while price is to be established. So it will not come easy for USF player, which will be obliged to pay attention at its RE in order to keep them in game and scaling them in vet so that they can build such an emplacement. No vet 2 (or 3) RE, no emplacement. Being a veterancy unlock, it will take a while untill USF player will be able to build such a thing, and he will probably be able to build it when the Axis thick armor will appear in scene (P4, Panthers).
25 Nov 2014, 11:08 AM
#23
avatar of GustavGans

Posts: 747

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Nov 2014, 10:33 AMSeolfor
Problem with OSTH 1v1 is how campy it gets. The entire game is about the USF forcing his way through a mega camp of MGs + ATs + Grens + Mortars. Even their P4s and eventual Tigers arent used as 'Tanks' rather much more semi-mobile immortal units of death, sitting behind passive camps that require MINIMAL micro.

- MG planted with arc covering sector, check
- AT gun just behind the MG covering the entry point, check
- Mortar behind the AT, bombarding any attempts to flip VP/Fuel/Ammo, check
- 1-2 Grens, now with LMGs, to rip charging/flanking infantry, along with insta engine hit fausts, check
- P4s or CP based Tiger/Panther, sitting behind it all, check

In any other RTS, you would be labelled a mega-trash newb for camping like 99% Osth players do in 1v1s. Just squat on 1 fuel/ammo/VP with 4 units, then send the blob to take the other. GG.

You lose cause youre bad, you win cause youre a camping git and the game isnt balanced - Fact :D


25 Nov 2014, 11:31 AM
#24
avatar of Australian Magic

Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2

Hominf Rifle AT nades? :lol: Rfile AT Nades are the easiet ones to dodge.

I would switch HMG with AT Gun.

If you go Captian you can get AT Gun, useless howi and shitty Stuart.
If you Lieutenant you have nice HMG, great M20 and Great Halftrack.

It looks little unbalanced...

Halftrack can counter Luchs BUT early M20 is key. You just need it. Taking M20 denies Halftrack (we want go for Major for something heavy) and it this time gap between M20 - Sherman Luchs can totaly destroy everything.
Sure, you can go for Cpt, At Gun and Stuart, but Stuars will be easliy countered by Schrecks or Puma, At gun has be placed perfectly because Luchs is so fast and so durable that it can get behind very easy.

Of course, you can also go for Airborne to drop AT, upgrade bazooka but using only 1 commander (which already happens) is not what we want or wasting fuel for bazooka that will be useless vs Luchs supported by Volks and Stormpios.

US Forces need Pershing. Not because it's powerful, heavy etc. but because USF need something else to deal with the heaviest units. 90% games you see only Airborne.If you won't go for P47 + Jackson you are done in most cases.

I remember crying about E8 that USF will only use this doctrine cause of E8 etc etc... How many E8 can you see? And how many P47?

US Forces are the worst designed faction.
25 Nov 2014, 11:40 AM
#25
avatar of Rupert

Posts: 186

Semois....OKW map...?

Please.

Either your cap orders are wrong or do not know where to place fighting positions.
25 Nov 2014, 12:02 PM
#26
avatar of wongtp

Posts: 647

give rifles some buildable green cover, non doctrinal.

for 280mp, they match volks at range, arent more durable than volks, need research for scaling upgrades and nades and cannot build defensive structures!

or defensive buffs are vet 1.

or a 6th man.
25 Nov 2014, 12:40 PM
#27
avatar of Blackart

Posts: 344

The only thing i dont like about USF is their AT capabilities. USF can handle the light vehicles, the medium tanks, and even the enemy elite's infantry if USF micros LMG wielding stuff well enough, but once the panthers, Tigers, and King Tigers roll out, then USF can only cower. USF has to spend boatloads of munitions, manpower, and fuel that oftentimes ends up being much more expensive than the armor the enemy has called in. Micro-ing units only goes so far until you start falling apart. Once you start your AT investments, then suddenly you have to balance your AT and AI capabilities, and falling behind in one department makes you fail in the other, as eventually your forces get crushed. When AP rounds bounce off of a tank when using a high vet Jackson or AT gun,... You feel like you want to cry. Also, bazookas are... Pretty WORTHLESS when it comes to anything with at least 200 frontal armor. Fortunately, schrecks 100% penetrate all your armor at max range, so you can feel even more bad about not winning when you had the chance early game. USF has... For me, the best early game with great stuff that pushes Axis back, but then your enemy calls in the big guns and better infantry, you look around for your own badass tanks, but find none at your disposal :( .

USF vs. Ostheer is... Certainly much better than USF vs OKW. I dont think USF needs to be any better vs. ostheer, so i would call a lot of the complaints a problem with OKW.


:lol:

and
25 Nov 2014, 13:24 PM
#28
avatar of and

Posts: 140

youtube vid


In before "flank noob"
25 Nov 2014, 14:33 PM
#29
avatar of Blackart

Posts: 344

You saw how much HP Panther had?

He tried to flank but the Panther is faster then M36 Jackson.
25 Nov 2014, 15:14 PM
#30
avatar of Ace of Swords

Posts: 219

Problem with OSTH 1v1 is how campy it gets. The entire game is about the USF forcing his way through a mega camp of MGs + ATs + Grens + Mortars. Even their P4s and eventual Tigers arent used as 'Tanks' rather much more semi-mobile immortal units of death, sitting behind passive camps that require MINIMAL micro.

- MG planted with arc covering sector, check
- AT gun just behind the MG covering the entry point, check
- Mortar behind the AT, bombarding any attempts to flip VP/Fuel/Ammo, check
- 1-2 Grens, now with LMGs, to rip charging/flanking infantry, along with insta engine hit fausts, check
- P4s or CP based Tiger/Panther, sitting behind it all, check

In any other RTS, you would be labelled a mega-trash newb for camping like 99% Osth players do in 1v1s. Just squat on 1 fuel/ammo/VP with 4 units, then send the blob to take the other. GG.

You lose cause youre bad, you win cause youre a camping git and the game isnt balanced - Fact :D



Then this isn't the RTS for you cleary, go play starcraft?


No but seriously, oshteer gets raped hard, like rage-quit tier in the first 10 - 15 minutes vs usf, and as it was pointed out before, go play axis, let's see how well you do with them.
25 Nov 2014, 15:25 PM
#31
avatar of TNrg

Posts: 640

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Nov 2014, 13:24 PMand


In before "flank noob"


That's some very unlucky RNG and the jackson was used wrong. Should have reversed to max range to outrange the panther.
25 Nov 2014, 15:37 PM
#32
avatar of __deleted__

Posts: 1225

Some pretty absurd stuff. Semois, impossible to win vs Ostheer of all factions? If anything, its the other way around. Park your rifles on houses on cutoff (he cant dislodge you), aggressively harass his fuel with M20/AAA HT/Greyhound, rush dat Sherman, gg. You have superior infantry, you have impact units, you should have superior mapcontrol. Most of the time its really that easy.
25 Nov 2014, 15:52 PM
#33
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3602 | Subs: 1

In Semois, It is really important to control mid and next side cutoff points - which is not difficult if you control the mid.
The common error is to try to cap 1 side in the first 2-4 minutes = you are losing a lot of time since the munition takes age to cap and a squad not engaged in the fight.
25 Nov 2014, 17:11 PM
#34
avatar of miragefla
Developer Relic Badge

Posts: 1304 | Subs: 13

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Nov 2014, 10:33 AMSeolfor

You lose cause youre bad, you win cause youre a camping git and the game isnt balanced - Fact :D


Ostheer's not really camping if they have to fight constant aggression preventing them from moving out. And none of their start non-doctrine units are particularly good alone or at attacking positions either either due to small squad sizes or being a support weapon, especially in the early game. US has the tools to break the camp in the form of smoke, early light vehicle rush and general map control early on not to mention a lot of maps make it difficult for Ostheer simply because of they are narrow and have plenty of flanking routes/cover to advance towards the Ostheer line.

25 Nov 2014, 17:25 PM
#35
avatar of QueenRatchet123

Posts: 2280 | Subs: 2

Permanently Banned
rifles need better vet

usf needs more doctrines with elite troops

*cough rangers cough*

I would love to see a heavy tank commander for those 4v4 fan boys


25 Nov 2014, 18:53 PM
#36
avatar of Ducati
Benefactor 115

Posts: 164

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Nov 2014, 03:07 AMSeolfor

My win is still exactly 50%. That may be a fair measure of my skill and maybe im a 65-70% win player who is playing a disadvantaged faction.


1 - The auto match system will match you with better players such that you maintain a 50%ish win loss ratio. Until you join the upper echelon of 1v1 players (who have played over 100 games) do you see a 70% win ratio. I think we can all agree that the USF have a difficult late game, however; I do not think that your average win/loss ratio is due to the faction you are playing.

2 - I think you need to play 100 games with all factions before you have the perspective necessary to suggest appropriate balance changes.
25 Nov 2014, 23:23 PM
#37
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

Some would say it's not about the quantity, but the quality.

PD: you can get top100 with 10 games won.
26 Nov 2014, 02:26 AM
#38
avatar of Looney
Patrion 14

Posts: 444

OP, let me explain how it works.

The German army is slow, static, boring, creeping and is getting stronger how longer the game goes on.

You have the advantage though, the US can control the early game. When playing US you'll have to anticipate what your opponent does and react with counters accordenly. This mindset must be continued through all the game.

Let me further explain how the US works.

The US and the Axis have certain types of advantages.

US -> early strong game and you can react with soft counters to everything. I know what that sounds like, why don't US have any hard counters? That's because even if you have soft counters, your counters arrive earlier then his, thanks to your teching and early advantage.

The Axis on the other hand have hard counters to all your units, BUT which arrive later then your soft counters.

Let's say you play a 1 vs 1 game.

At the early game: You have the advantage. Let's pick a build most used; Fast tech to LT and getting a M20.

In that moment you have a soft counter to all his infantry on the field though when this happens you already have to think about the next phase. Tt forces your opponent to play differently and get a counter of his own. Remember Axis have hard counters for your units. Werh = Scout car OKW = Puma. The solution to this is laying mines or getting that extra RES with zooks on them.

When you have zooks you can soft/medium counter all light armor that Axis have, it once again gives you an advantage of map control and recources.

The great thing about early M20 is you don't spend alot of fuel so you can fast tech to major and get that sherman out. With this build you're really strong in the mid game. Though you'll have to prepare again to counter his incoming armor with Jacksons, which are of course soft counters to his armor.

The advantage the US has in between the phases of counters is VETERANCY, it helps you be a soft counter to units to hold out till your counter arrives.

When you play US like you're supposed to play and don't lose any squads/vehicles the Axis only tries to catch up with you. When the Axis finally gets hard counters for your entire army the VP's will drop to 0 and he will lose.
Except when he's got tiger ace, you can't counter that as US, only with mines.

I only use this strat in urban maps combined with Airborne btw, your para's counter his infantry when they arrive. Not really a fan of this in large maps. I can by the way make a guide for you with 2 builds from early to late game which work on urban maps and on large maps.

TLDR version:
The US has soft counters for everything the Axis has, it's used for PUSHING Axis away to get that map/VP control.
26 Nov 2014, 02:31 AM
#39
avatar of Looney
Patrion 14

Posts: 444

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Nov 2014, 03:07 AMSeolfor
Dear Relic,

SO i made a semi-raging thread after my first 50 games. After some posts that im not proud of in hindsight, i took aboard the feedback from the thread and played another 50.

My win is still exactly 50%. That may be a fair measure of my skill and maybe im a 65-70% win player who is playing a disadvantaged faction.


I saw your question about the Stug, it has extremely low health, 4 zooks hit and it's gone.
It's highly flankable as well, it has no turret. Ask me any questions how to counter any Axis builds, probadly seen them all.
26 Nov 2014, 03:09 AM
#40
avatar of Seolfor

Posts: 26

SO looney, your TLDR is that the game is balanced in 1v1 and USF is fine ...?
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SHOUT IT OUT!

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Willy Pete: @Lady Xenarra this you? https://i.imgflip.com/3e4thi.jpg
Today, 02:53 AM
Lady Xenarra: Does anyone else think that USF needs buffs? It feels like they’re on life support sometimes
Today, 02:36 AM
Willy Pete: @Rosbone Ahh I missed that memo. I still think its a bad decision though. Adds frustration for players and isnt gonna make them that much money
Last Thursday, 15:46 PM
Rosbone: It is also good they left it free until after the free to play weekend. Points for that.
Last Thursday, 09:34 AM
Rosbone: But I agree, the cost to get a full decent Coh game pushing $115 US is not the best idea. Especially when it needs so much more work for casuals.
Last Thursday, 09:32 AM
Rosbone: To be fair, it was a thank you to early fans right? They said it was not free for long and it would become a pay DLC at some point.
Last Thursday, 09:30 AM
Willy Pete: Re-releasing free DLC so they can charge new players money for it. Brilliant marketing strategy :clap:
Last Thursday, 04:31 AM
Soheil: Coh2 still broken server ?
25 Mar 2025, 18:27 PM
Rosbone: Congrats to Relic. Looks like Coh3 has finally usurped Coh2 s the popular Coh. You smell terrific. :snfQuinn:.
24 Mar 2025, 02:46 AM
Nickbn: and again someone else replies. I mean come on guys. Give @adamírcz a chance
22 Mar 2025, 14:00 PM
Willy Pete: @Nickbn you didn't ask a question, and this is a chat box...
20 Mar 2025, 13:11 PM
Nickbn: @Rosbone it's incredibly rude to speak on someone elses behalf, especially when a question is directly adressed to them. I understand your passion for the subject at hand but I want to hear from him.
20 Mar 2025, 10:16 AM
Rosbone: @Nickbn No, I am just saying people should not be using any Relic owned forum since they have proven they ban anyone who says true things about Coh3.
18 Mar 2025, 19:01 PM
Nickbn: @Rosbone do you speak on his behalf? I didn't know. In that case keep us updated please.
18 Mar 2025, 16:47 PM
Rosbone: #RelicModdedEchoChamber
16 Mar 2025, 17:54 PM
Rosbone: @Nickbn True except, the only people on the Relic Discord/Reddit/Steam are brain washed monkey zealots. They wont even understand what @adamírcz is talking about. Anyone else is banned.
16 Mar 2025, 17:54 PM
Nickbn: @adamírcz might be a better idea to voice this to relic directly than to voice it here, in a shoutbox of a nearly deade fansite #justsaying...
16 Mar 2025, 16:36 PM
webdesign-muenchen-w: @Rosbone it is sick
14 Mar 2025, 22:09 PM
aerafield: @adamírcz aren't the first two disconnects free every day?
14 Mar 2025, 19:26 PM
Rosbone: It is so unlike Relic to punish its fans and community.
14 Mar 2025, 12:07 PM
adamírcz: So, I just got a leaver penalty without even getting onto the loading screen because of the game disconnecting, bravo Relic
14 Mar 2025, 10:45 AM
Rosbone: It is an indicator of the very short sighted capitalist view that plagues any company where leadership does not understand the product.
13 Mar 2025, 20:00 PM
Rosbone: They dont care about Coh3 or Coh in general. They are just trying to grab cash by ripping off the small user base they have.
13 Mar 2025, 19:58 PM
Rosbone: Just making mistake after mistake after mistake.
13 Mar 2025, 19:57 PM
Rosbone: It is clear they crapped out an unfinished game. And are now barely supporting it as they make new smaller games. Coh3 is stillborn. It will be meh for at least another 2-4 years. Meaning they killed the whole franchise instead of growing it.
13 Mar 2025, 19:56 PM
Rosbone: For a thing they could fix in minutes. Literally minutes.
13 Mar 2025, 19:53 PM
Rosbone: If I did play coh3 and was mainly a skirmish player, I would be pissed and probably stop playing. And it has been like this since release. Why? I would not tell my friends to buy a game I am not even playing. Lost sales and angered users.
13 Mar 2025, 19:53 PM
Rosbone: I am just saddened how Relic keeps hurting themselves by not fixing 5 minute things like menus. Why anger users with stuff that could be fixed in minutes???
13 Mar 2025, 19:50 PM
Rosbone: I was wondering why people think I was raging. I think it was when I said "because coh3 sucks so bad". That was not my opinion. Just a general feel from top players/streamers. I dont play Coh3 and have NO opinion of it.
13 Mar 2025, 19:48 PM
OKSpitfire: You can rage as often as you like btw, you usually manage to make it pretty funny.
12 Mar 2025, 11:18 AM
Rosbone: So it was a systemic failure across multiple disciplines and check points.
12 Mar 2025, 04:30 AM
Rosbone: Knowing how companies work, I imagine a new hire making the menus. The API they are using is complicated and things were hard to figure out. But at some point QA or management should have addressed these things. Usually within 6 months of starting.
12 Mar 2025, 04:29 AM
Rosbone: @theekvn I dont hate Coh3 or Relic. I just dont understand how you work on Coh3 for like 7 years and the menu system is worse than if a Programming 101 student made it. Feel free to explain it to me.
12 Mar 2025, 04:07 AM
theekvn: + 33% dmg rear hit was best deal ever.
12 Mar 2025, 04:00 AM
theekvn: KT just need fuel debuf from 15% to 50%, Ele arc of fire- aim time improve and they are good to go
12 Mar 2025, 03:59 AM
theekvn: and please Rosbone,I know you hate Coh3 to the bone due to your drama with relic, Still, Can you give a proper point of view instead of raging ?.
12 Mar 2025, 03:54 AM
theekvn: you rather go 76 to unity Whizbang 2.0 or go home.
12 Mar 2025, 03:52 AM
theekvn: also US tier 4 is 145f and Sherman pen 140 nerf is too much.
12 Mar 2025, 03:52 AM
theekvn: Whizbang lock behind CP, meanwhile stuka is techtree progress
12 Mar 2025, 03:51 AM
KoRneY: @aerafield It's possible that it is underpriced for what it is capable of now, no need to go full retard and take it immediately as a massive problem. It costs 60 more MP than a pz.3 and in 2v2 the barrage can be quite strong.
07 Mar 2025, 19:14 PM
OKSpitfire: I do like that they made the Stuka more expensive instead of nerfing it into the ground though. Found it pretty unsatisfying to use before that buff a while back....
06 Mar 2025, 16:35 PM
aerafield: USF already is by far the shittiest faction in terms of countering blobbing and turtling, now they supposedly have one overtuned tool locked behind a BG and it's immediately a massive problem?
06 Mar 2025, 13:33 PM
Lady Xenarra: I think post-2.0 Whizbang buffs, the price is too low esp since the Stuka got nerfed in cost too. Speaking of which, how exactly is one supposed to successfully dive this Sherman in disguise? Med tank spam running into SSFs?
06 Mar 2025, 12:13 PM
OKSpitfire: A powerful, doctrinal unit that outperforms stock stuff? Colour me shocked! :P
06 Mar 2025, 10:49 AM
Willy Pete: Cool you wanna lose your stock lategame arty too then?
06 Mar 2025, 03:20 AM
Lady Xenarra: WTB Whizzbang for DAK instead of Stuka, 5 fuel cheape, 60MP more expensive and next to impossible to dive. :rofl:
05 Mar 2025, 20:27 PM
Rosbone: It is also hard to expect Relic to help Coh2 when they cant even make working menus in Coh3 yet, 2 years after release and at full price+ for DLCs. Thats like asking a fish to do calculus.
04 Mar 2025, 02:58 AM
Rosbone: But this last patch has made good progress for grabbing players. All we can hope is Coh3 gets to Coh2s quality level before everyone abandons the franchise. Its Relic so they will completely f*%k it up as usual. But its a hope/cope.
04 Mar 2025, 02:55 AM
Rosbone: Relic wants Coh2 to fail so players will migrate to Coh3. It is hard to blame them since Coh3 sucks so bad. It needs all the help it can get.
04 Mar 2025, 02:53 AM
Soheil: Coh2 is dead , full of map hackers , and lelic knows that but ...
04 Mar 2025, 01:26 AM
aerafield: Oh how I missed the weird spam bots, welcome back :banana:
03 Mar 2025, 13:05 PM
situsgbo777: Platform game online terpercaya dengan berbagai pilihan permainan seru dan peluang menang besar. Nikmati pengalaman bermain terbaik hanya di GBO777
03 Mar 2025, 06:48 AM
OKSpitfire: @aerafield that does sound familiar
02 Mar 2025, 09:06 AM
aerafield: @Lady Xenarra :rofl:
02 Mar 2025, 01:45 AM
Lady Xenarra: Ah, the gren faust-replacing-rifles bug/exploit. :ph34r:
01 Mar 2025, 18:24 PM
aerafield: CoH3 high elo is truly the dumbest CoH experience that ever existed
01 Mar 2025, 17:25 PM
aerafield: @OKSpitfire tbh I find it quite challenging to get the Pershing in time, having to suffer through the CoH3 tickrate and this endless bullshit meta of massive blobs going back and forth to the forward heal truck
01 Mar 2025, 17:24 PM
OKSpitfire: Well... going to be seeing the Pershing a lot for a little while, that thing is a monster.
01 Mar 2025, 11:44 AM
NigelBallsworth: axis stuff is getting more meme by the second
28 Feb 2025, 23:32 PM

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