The imbalance between Allied and Axis Infantry Anti-tank

Panzerfusiliers do pay for their G43's though. Obersoldaten would need a manpower decrease if their LMG comes separate, and Fallschirmjagers would also need a cost reduction.

I find these balance discussion always amusing how bad they are. especially the concept of forcing fsj and obers to pay for their weapons. but the fsj and obers are this expensive because they already carry weapons. if you remove their weapons and single fsj should only cost between 32-34 mp. and obet between should only cost 34-35 and with less popcap of course. you will see a lot more obers and fsj when you do that and after a while they are going to get their weapon upgrades . right fsj and obers are limited because of their very high mp . if the suggestion goes through you will see oberspam of apocalyptic proportions.

What if we make Obers pay for their lmg and reduce cost for volks' shrecks? This way, as someone said here before, an OKW player is obliged to chose between having a powerfull AI infantry or a good AT solution. If you want okw pay 90 amo for lmg 34 and 90 fuel for schreck, then 100% amo income is mandatory.

Problem:
OKW can have both AI and AT infanty.

Solution:
1) Force OKW to make choice between AI and AT infanty by increasing cost of AI infanty.
2) Give OKW more resources so they could have both... - WHAAAAAAAAT?

Woa guys, you just want to change the game here when a simple solution of balancing ammo cost is probably sufficient at a first try.

There is no need to give new weapons to OKW, thats just going to break even more the game balance.

JohnnyB asks why we should fear a Volks blob of shreck more than pzgren?
Because pzgren cost lot more to reinforce
Because pzgren have less vet capabilities
Because pzgren come later and usually don't pickup their shreck already vet1 or 2.

Because nobody cares about a pure volks shreck blob, not more than a pure pzgren shreck blob. People actually do care about a volks shreck blob mixed with a (at your choice) Obers/falls/pzfusillers.

But all of that could be fine, if Obers/falls/pzfusillers have a cost added to their powerful weapons, as any other specialized unit.

How much fucking mp are we talking here? mate. each volks cost about the same as the baseline infantry of other factions. obers and fsj cost 400/440.

Problem:
OKW can have both AI and AT infanty.

Thats not a problem as all factions have them.

T-34/76 front plate: 45 mm/60° = 90 mm effective armour
Sherman M4A3 front plate: 51 mm/56° = 91,2 mm effective armour
PzKpfw IV Ausf. H front plate: 80 mm/9° = 81 mm effective armour

I'am affraid it is not that simple.
Not the actual slope of the armor counts but the impact angle of the shell. Just because a plate of armour is sloped 60° from the vertical doesn't mean a shell will hit like that.

The effect of slop is usually much over exagerated in popular sources. It only works under certain conditions and usually not to the same degree as theory suggests.

Material quality plays a much bigger role for example. But it can't be seen on a picture. A layman also doesn'T know the difference between a face hardened rolled steel plate and a cast steel plate. HB230 is that good or bad? What is the difference between face hardened, thorough hardened or mild steel. What is more important hardness or elasticity? etc
This is not only true for the armor plate but also for the shell. A shell will penetrate better against lower quality armor. Mistakes with hardening will lead to fracturing. Wich means thickness and slope become irrelevant. The plate will shatter like a plate of grass if the impact is strong enough. Even if not chance is fragments will shower into the vehicles interiour from the point of impact. This effect even has a name because its so common: spalling.

There also is an effect called "overmatch". Wich is very relevant in full caliber AP shells as used during WW2. A plate of armor regardless of slope will be ineffective against a shell wich has a dimaeter bigger than the plates thickness. This is a rule of thumb but it is proven by actual experience. It took years after the war to fully understand why. It is related to the way how full caliber shells work. The distribution of tension around the point of impact and the reflection of shockwaves in the crystal structure of the armor material are important.

What it comes down to is that at the end of the day a thicker plate of armor is a thicker plate of armor. Wich means it offers more protection.
A thinner and sloped plate might duplicate the protection under the right circumstances but this isn't 100 % sure.
A prime example are the British cruiser tanks. These were desigend with sloped armor (especially the turret) to duplicate the effect of a thicker plate and save weight. In theory their armor was quite good. Only it turned out in the field they were paper thin and could be penetrated by any AT weapon.
The T34 was at least proof against 37 mm guns. And offered some protection against 50 mm L42. The 50 mm L60 and all 75 mm (exept for the L24 howitzer) could reliably penetrate it with AP shells. The T34 was only problematic for the Germans when it showed up in huge numbers. Wich it did later in the war. The armor of the KV series and later heavy tanks was problematic.

A thick plate will allways offer the protection that its thickness provides. Even in the worst of circumstances. More often than not it will offer more because a hit is not scored at a perfect angle. With sloped plates its the other way round. It only offers the theoretical protection against a perfect hit.

This combined with the high quality material results in German AFV having better protection compared to AFV with the same armor thickness made by other nations.

Thats not a problem as all factions have them.

Not on top quality.

Soviets-LOL AT infantry

USF-decent AI, zookas still shitty

Wehr-decent AI, decent AT both have clear weakness and cost

OKW-best AT weapon on most durable squad in game, best AI weapon on best scaling squad in game.

So indeed, its not a problem, because all factions have them.
Its a problem, because OKW gives NOTHING in return for it and pays the LEAST to get it as they don't need to upgrade anything to get best AI infantry weapon and squad in game.

Why people think that okw shreck blob is soooo dangerous compared to an ostheer shreck blob?! 3 shreck pzgren squads can deliver much more damage than 4 or even 5 shreck volks squads, AND THEY ARE CHEAPER!

360*3 = 1080mp
vs
235*4/5 = 940/1175mp

One is a T2 unit, the other one is your mainline infantry. HUGE difference on mp to reinforce, PG only gets survivability buffs on vet2 AND it loses all it's AI capabilities.

120*3= 360muni
90*4/5= 360/450muni

While you are "starved" muni wise, you don't have any other upgrades to spend it on.

It's easy and painful to lose a PG with shrecks. I can always get another volk and give them shrecks on the late game.

So indeed, its not a problem, because all factions have them.
Its a problem, because OKW gives NOTHING in return for it and pays the LEAST to get it as they don't need to upgrade anything to get best AI infantry weapon and squad in game.

thats why they have a 66% fuel income and 80% ammo income and i value panzerfausts and at nades far more then shreks.

thats why they have a 66% fuel income and 80% ammo income and i value panzerfausts and at nades far more then shreks.

They also have least amount of upgrades and muni sinks therefore all early muni can go into shrecks and infantry doesn't cost fuel, so none of it matters.

They also have least amount of upgrades and muni sinks therefore all early muni can go into shrecks and infantry doesn't cost fuel, so none of it matters.

volk shrecks are the ammo sink and the only way to make them useful. and less fuel means your handicapped . every single unit within the okw needs to be flat out better then the other factions this stuff is balanced and i see no reason to change it.

also losing your tanks to shrek blobs is a mistake on your part

i guess losing your tanks to the b4 is your fault as well trololol

i value panzerfausts and at nades far more then shreks.

So you would like Mr. Someguy's idea, yes? (Perhaps cheaper schrecks for sturmpioneers and volks get CQC package with faust)

i guess losing your tanks to the b4 is your fault as well trololol

oh dont worry i sacrifice a goat every week to the rng god to prevent that. but yeah i do not attack volks with tanks because thats a bad idea. attacking volks with tanks is about on the same level as sticking your hand into a fire to see if fire is hot.

So you would like Mr. Someguy's idea, yes? (Perhaps cheaper schrecks for sturmpioneers and volks get CQC package with faust)

Lol you wish to make the okw OP? by all means suggest it but i dont find the current situation to particularly imbalanced.

oh dont worry i sacrifice a goat every week to the rng god to prevent that. but yeah i do not attack volks with tanks because thats a bad idea. attacking volks with tanks is about on the same level as sticking your hand into a fire to see if fire is hot.

Soooooo, you don't attack volks with tanks, you don't attack obers with infantry, do you simply concede when you see them both at once?

Oh wait, sorry, I almost fell for it-we all know you don't play allies.

Haha, Jaigen

I attack volks all the time with tank, usually I win too. It's gotten even better since I started smoking them before I go in for the roadkill. I can't wait for your playercard to show up.

The only time it's stupid to attack volks with a tank is when there is an enemy tank nearby.


I do agree with JohnnyB about balancing the value of the shrek. I don't know about reducing the cost for volks, but I do feel that both shrek upgrades and the bazooka need better defined values and balance. With the bazooka currently at 60, the shrek should be worth 90, meaning pgrens are getting a steal at 120 right now.

OKW-best AT weapon on most durable squad in game, best AI weapon on best scaling squad in game.
.

Since when volks are the most durable squad in the game?!!? Since when you can fight medium allied armor in this game JUST with volks with schrecks?!

Haha, Jaigen

I attack volks all the time with tank, usually I win too. It's gotten even better since I started smoking them before I go in for the roadkill. I can't wait for your playercard to show up.

The only time it's stupid to attack volks with a tank is when there is an enemy tank nearby.


I do agree with JohnnyB about balancing the value of the shrek. I don't know about reducing the cost for volks, but I do feel that both shrek upgrades and the bazooka need better defined values and balance. With the bazooka currently at 60, the shrek should be worth 90, meaning pgrens are getting a steal at 120 right now.

Well, I'm glad you agree with me, but it seems you disagree in fact . I was saying that shrecks need to cost 60 amo, obers need to pay for their lmg (90 or 100 am0), and okw needs to have 100% amo income.
Annyway, I agree with you (for real) with the volks fighting tanks thing. Yes, I charge volks with tanks EVERY TIME exactly because they are not a real threat to medium armor as so manny people complain. While doing this, ofc that you need to check:
1. Is there a tank or an AT that could help them?
2. What is the proportion? Are you attacking 3-4 squads with just one tank? If so, you should go to COH2 basics and lear the game again.

IN FACT, it's more dangerous to charge with medium tanks squads that have AT NADES! Because they cripple your tank and run. Yes, they do a minimum damage, but your tank will move like a snail and will be a sitting duck for the enemy's AT guns or tanks.

Since when volks are the most durable squad in the game?!!? Since when you can fight medium allied armor in this game JUST with volks with schrecks?!

since at vet5 they have recieved accuracy at 52.5%, and at vet0 the schrecks penetrate every allied medium armor with 100% chance, and even at max range they have almost 100% hit chance.
Does that B in your nick mean biased?

Laser beam schrecks can snipe any allied tank as soon as they get into range.

now you can run your medium tank into a couple of squads and disrupt them so they don't fire, but once there is a critical mass, say bye bye to your tanks. I see volk schreck blobs in every game. it is probably a design issue, since there isn't a real tank for midgame for OKW.

the schrecks penetrate every allied medium armor with 100% chance, and even at max range they have almost 100% hit chance.

This is completely incorrect. Panzerschrecks have 180-160 Penetration.