The imbalance between Allied and Axis Infantry Anti-tank

Well the Alternative is either:

Nerf Shreks
Buff Allied Armor Values
Nerf Axis Armor Values

Zooks arent worth it and really should be. I doubt that Relic will make them useful in their current state by allowing them to be shouldered like the OKW mine sweepers. Right now you put your self to the AI of an unupgraded Gren without Rnades or a reliable Snare and are still more expensive. Why would you want to do that to your Riflemen?

Rifles are strong Early but the weakest at Vet 2 (IMHO) due to their Ass Backwards Vet Bonuses. And have the weakest vet bonuses as well. They dont perform as well as one would expect a unit that costs 50 more MP and have to pay for all their upgrades.

I like the idea of COH1 style handheld AT as well.

Well, i'd pick "nerf Shrecks", but only on long distance, so skill (!) actually matters, and kiting with mediums from Allies is a proper solution again.
If you bumrush your single T34 vs. a couple of upgraded PGrens, then you should lose, but if you use it carefully, you should win - which isn't really the case atm.

Zooks weren't even that useful in COH1, they were great vs. light or medium armor, but that's it.
Rifles are super versatile, they aren't supposed to be designated AT troops. PGrens already lose half their AI due the upgrade, but that's Axis.

Anyways, back to topic: Shreck spam + a-move = too easy and useful. So start there i'd say.

Firstly, I advocate for toning down veteracy bonuses, not remove it. But the current modifiers are simply crazily high, and the adverse effects are very significant (fx volks blobs and heavy tanks)

Just because they are to high for Volks doesn't mean they are too high in general! If we include the Vet of Ober this would be two units in the entire game.
Even if we say the Vet 5 of OKW is broken it would be one faction out of four. Even in this case the conclusion is not that vet as such is broken but one faction is.

Secondly, you overestimate the significance of veterancy for the CoH gameplay. It's actually one of the least important mechanics. The most important are squads, cover, garrisoning, light arms ineffective vs. tanks etc. Vet is very low on that list.

Actually no. You underestimate it. Unit preservation and scaling by vet is a fundamental part of the concept of CoH. The basic idea is that a Vet2 unit performs as well as two Vet0 units of the same type.
Because of the fixed pop cap this is somewhat watered down but this means if you keep your units alive and vet them up you field a veteran force wich is twice as strong as a freshly build one of the same size.
If vet is toned down there is not need to preserve troops anymore. Suicide attacks become a basic strategy and its mostly about outproducing the opposition. It also means its possible to pump out T1 as long as desired and needed to then let them all die and replace them with new high tier units. No need to micro individual units to keep them alive. Wich would be more or less exactly as in most other RTS games.

Another reason why vet currently means too much and should be toned down. Because vet gives so huge bonuses, it is devastating to lose a vetted squad to RNG.

Again you draw the wrong conclusion. Not the vet needs to be turned down but the randomness. For example it could be a good idea to reduce the AOE of several of the late game units and focus on their specific task. Why for example does a Jagttiger fire HE shells as standard. Its a dedicated AT vehicle. Make it fire AP shells will allmost no splash as standard and HE as an ability wich needs to be activated for one shot and has a cooldown. Same with the ISU. This would make them vulnurable to infantry assaults and incapable of locking down sections of the map completly. They still will do that to vehicles but not to infantry. They also would stop to one shot AT guns wich at least in theory are their hardcounter.

Vet is simply a major source of late game problems including volk shreck blobs.

This is exactly ONE problem. With one faction and one specific unit.
If vet would be to strong in general it would be true for all factions T1 units. How many Vet3 Conscript, Rifle or Grenadier blobs dominate the game?
For most faction even doctrine, call in, elite infantry can't dominate on their own regardless if Vet3 or not.

Vet bonuses need to be toned down and normalized across factions. God damn, it would improve the game a lot with little consequences.

The consequence would be a boring game and mirror factions. If you want that there are plenty of games out there that do that.
The Vet bonuses should be picked so it makes the unit better in its role, maybe broaden its role and fits the faction. Not global for all. This would create lots of scaling problems. A accuracy bonus for example would be much more powerfull the higher the effective ROF of a unit. Wich means the US would profit most (large squads, fast firing rifles) and the OH least (small squads, slow firing rifles). This is just one example.
In CoH1 the Vet bonuses differed from unit to unit and from faction to faction. In general the US forces improved their ability to do damage plus speed for vehicles and the WH improved toughness. PE could pick each level (offense or defense) depending on unit one made more sense than the other. Brits improved across the board but less in each specific field.
This worked extremly well. Vet5 is rather new. So of course there a teething problems with its scaling.

Zooks weren't even that useful in COH1, they were great vs. light or medium armor, but that's it.

In CoH1 there mainly was medium armor and a few heavy tanks. You wouldn't see a Tiger or bigger stuff every game. Let alone several in one.

Its also important that Rangers had Zooks. Call in, Elite infantry. They came with two. Upgrade was Tommy guns. The combination of elite infantry with supression break and speed increase (fire up) made Bazookas effective. Two squads of Rangers running past a Tiger to get flank shots could do conciderable damage. Three of four could bring it down. The Tiger was the heavy with the best anti infantry capability. Panther was pretty meh against inf (worse than P4). Jagtpanther and Tiger B were anti vehicle with some anti inf capability.

Bazookas were also pretty versatile in CoH1. They did damage to infantry targets, buildings, bunkers etc.

If vet is toned down there is not need to preserve troops anymore. Suicide attacks become a basic strategy and its mostly about outproducing the opposition. It also means its possible to pump out T1 as long as desired and needed to then let them all die and replace them with new high tier units. No need to micro individual units to keep them alive. Wich would be more or less exactly as in most other RTS games.

Unit preservation matters a lot in other games. Warcraft 3 is perhaps the best example. Here, players expend high levels of effort to micro individual unit models to keep them alive, and invest in healing items and spells.

In CoH, people often send their squads on suicide-like assaults: as long as one soldier can make it out on retreat, you're happy. Actually, in CoH, the individual soldier matters less than in other games, as long as the squad stays alive.

In the end, reducing vet bonuses will not make unit preservation any less relevant in CoH. Again, I do not argue for removing vet. The vet bonuses would still be there, albeit on a more reasonable level, and reinforcing is still cheaper than replacing.

This is exactly ONE problem. With one faction and one specific unit.
If vet would be to strong in general it would be true for all factions T1 units. How many Vet3 Conscript, Rifle or Grenadier blobs dominate the game?
For most faction even doctrine, call in, elite infantry can't dominate on their own regardless if Vet3 or not.

Actually, rifles, grens and obers with LMGs also become ridiculous with vet, sniping infantry at long range. They are fine without vet. As I also mentioned, veterancy skews the medium vs. heavy tank efficiency too.

in CoH, the individual soldier matters less than in other games, as long as the squad stays alive.

I never said the individual soldier should matter. Unit preservation yes individual preservation no.

Comparing CoH to WC is like comparing an appel to a nut. Both grow on trees there the similarities end. WC and CoH are both RTS that is it.
BTW keeping low tier units alive in WC is much less important than the single hero and expensive and powerfull late game units.

Actually, rifles, grens and obers with LMGs also become ridiculous with vet

Rifles and Grens don't become rediculous with vet. They stay squishy and can't stand up to call in elite or higher tier infantry. The Vet only helps them to hold their ground against these more powerfull units if unvetted.
In the case of the Grens and Rifles its the weapon upgrades that makes a significant difference.

Obers are allready broke without vet. So they are no viable argument for Vet being broken.

veterancy skews the medium vs. heavy tank efficiency too.

So you say a veted medium is too strong vs a heavy?
Now this is rediculous.
Mediums hit the field befor heavies and have a chance to accumulate vet befor they meet their large and more powerfull kin. Vet should make a difference here. A veted medium should be a threat for a heavy wich just rolled onto the battlefield.
This is exactly what vet it for to make units scale as the game goes on.

If your agrument is heavies with vet become to stong its the same as with Obers. They are broken. Not the vet but the unit and its impact on the meta as such.

I really like the idea of putting the panzershreck upgrade onto sturmpios. Obviously volksgrenadiers would need some sort of compensation. What do you all think of giving them unlock-able weapons upgrades? One being an mp-44 assault upgrade, similar to the ppsh upgrade the conscripts get. The other being an mg42. Now to prevent this change from being op these weapon upgrades could have some sort of initial unlock cost, like BARS or bazookas. They could also be separately locked behind different OKW buildings e.g., the mp44's with the battlegroup HQ, the mg 42 with the mechanized regiment HQ.

Why do you want to give them an upgrade? The problem with Volks is whatever upgrade you give them, they going to blob as hell with. Instead of a shreck blob you'll have a XX upgrade blob.
They are the cheapest and most effective squad of the game, this is funny because Relic has probably nerf to hell conscripts for that reason, they were cheap and spamable and now they do the same with volks.

Volk are:

Cheap to build
Cheap to reinforce
Best vet in the game
Can carry shreck

The problem lie in a combination of those 4 factors. If you want to give them another upgrade, you must at least reduce one other characteristic.

Or you nerf their vet, or you seriously increase their price. But that would completely change their gameplay.

If Relic decide to give back shreck to sturmpio and wants to give a new upgrade to volk and keep this meta, the minimum to keep it balance is to link this upgrade to a commander ability, as for conscripts.

Why do you want to give them an upgrade? The problem with Volks is whatever upgrade you give them, they going to blob as hell with. Instead of a shreck blob you'll have a XX upgrade blob.
They are the cheapest and most effective squad of the game, this is funny because Relic has probably nerf to hell conscripts for that reason, they were cheap and spamable and now they do the same with volks.

I don't see any Conscript blobs even when PPSh's are selected, nor do I see Osttruppen blobs very often (usually it's because an officer is leading a charge, but they thin out fast and/or disperse afterward), I've seen a couple RE blobs but not in person and they don't seem to work so great. So why do you think Volksblobs will persist? The primary reason Volksblobbing works is because they get excellent AT Weapons and Obersoldaten to add in godly AI.

Volk are:

Cheap to build
Cheap to reinforce
Best vet in the game
Can carry shreck

Volks are only 5 MP less than Grenadiers or Conscripts (240) and 23.5MP to reinforce, which is only 3.5 more than Conscripts (20) and 6.5 less than Grenadiers (30). However I will agree the ~50% dodge chance at Vet 5 is ludicrous and should be reworked. Panzerschrecks of course, should be removed from Volksgrenadiers as we are discussing. Then we can give them toned-down automatic weapons so they can stay relevant into the mid-to-late game.

Then we can give them toned-down automatic weapons so they can stay relevant into the mid-to-late game.

Why would Relic do that, they don't give anything relevant for conscript to scale late game. Or you give them a Commander base upgrade.

Why would Relic do that, they don't give anything relevant for conscript to scale late game. Or you give them a Commander base upgrade.

Conscripts should get something though.

Conscripts should get something though.

How about new quotes or they skin rework? Yep, I know - OP.

Guards need a rework.

Guards need a rework.

I don't even understand why Guards are doctrinal. I think they should be more in line with Panzergrenadiers with a choice of upgrades and make Penals a doctrinal unit.

Yeah there is no point in having guards as doctrinal unit

I really like the idea of putting the panzershreck upgrade onto sturmpios. Obviously volksgrenadiers would need some sort of compensation. What do you all think of giving them unlock-able weapons upgrades? One being an mp-44 assault upgrade, similar to the ppsh upgrade the conscripts get. The other being an mg42. Now to prevent this change from being op these weapon upgrades could have some sort of initial unlock cost, like BARS or bazookas. They could also be separately locked behind different OKW buildings e.g., the mp44's with the battlegroup HQ, the mg 42 with the mechanized regiment HQ.

This makes no sense, since giving Sturmpioniers results in Volks becoming more like Sturmpioniers, if not Grenadiers or Obersoldaten. No pointing doing that since you can go T3 and get Obers that already have the MG34, which fires on the move, and the Obers are better than Volks at it. And all this to avoid Volks being AT infantry?

This makes no sense, since giving Sturmpioniers results in Volks becoming more like Sturmpioniers, if not Grenadiers or Obersoldaten. No pointing doing that since you can go T3 and get Obers that already have the MG34, which fires on the move, and the Obers are better than Volks at it. And all this to avoid Volks being AT infantry?

The idea of giving Volks automatic weapons instead is to make them better skirmish infantry, but not assault infantry. It'd be needed for a fairly balanced faction (Schrecks on Sturmpios, less OP Obers, and facing BAR's) to better keep pace.

Why do you want to give them an upgrade? The problem with Volks is whatever upgrade you give them, they going to blob as hell with. Instead of a shreck blob you'll have a XX upgrade blob.
They are the cheapest and most effective squad of the game, this is funny because Relic has probably nerf to hell conscripts for that reason, they were cheap and spamable and now they do the same with volks.

Volk are:

Cheap to build
Cheap to reinforce
Best vet in the game
Can carry shreck

The problem lie in a combination of those 4 factors. If you want to give them another upgrade, you must at least reduce one other characteristic.

Or you nerf their vet, or you seriously increase their price. But that would completely change their gameplay.


If Relic decide to give back shreck to sturmpio and wants to give a new upgrade to volk and keep this meta, the minimum to keep it balance is to link this upgrade to a commander ability, as for conscripts.

Well, the same goes for usf, they are blobbing with airbornes and rifles as well. And if you take the schreck from the volks you have to give them something else, otherwise no one will build them anymore and you would have to give the okw some sort of mobile at which isn't bound to one tier. When you take the schrecks from the volks okw will be slaughtered by the american light vehicles and even more by m3s.

Well, the same goes for usf, they are blobbing with airbornes and rifles as well. And if you take the schreck from the volks you have to give them something else, otherwise no one will build them anymore and you would have to give the okw some sort of mobile at which isn't bound to one tier. When you take the schrecks from the volks okw will be slaughtered by the american light vehicles and even more by m3s.

We are talking about giving shreck to sturmpio, not removing shreck unilateraly. Don't you understand that the issue lies within their Vet capability and cheap reinforce price, whatever you give them is going to make them super strong for a ridiculous price.

Shreks on Sturmpioneers.
Brilliant idea...not.

What is going yo happened with Volks after such a change? Because giving them the option to gain weapon upgrades for ammunition is even more ridiculous.

What is going yo happened with Volks after such a change? Because giving them the option to gain weapon upgrades for ammunition is even more ridiculous.

It's not nearly as ridiculous as the strongest infantry AT weapon on a cheap and durable 5 man squad, who at Vet 5 are the most durable infantry in the game. And also Vet 5 comes fast because they have a bloody AT weapon.