Anyway ISU armor piercing round also solves a lot of problems
Heavies vs mediums - unfair and stagnating the meta
7 Nov 2014, 09:23 AM
#41
Posts: 170
Higher chance on engine crits or some kind of detracking mechanism on super heavies would be nice.
Anyway ISU armor piercing round also solves a lot of problems
Anyway ISU armor piercing round also solves a lot of problems
7 Nov 2014, 10:15 AM
#42
4 
Posts: 640 | Subs: 1
Wow thanks for all the replies guys.
Several users mentioned that the heavies appear too soon. I agree with this wholeheartedly. CoH2 does have a faster pace than CoH1 (for comparison, most vehicles were at least Tier 3 in CoH1, which in CoH2 already gives you access to medium tanks). This is actually good, mediums are fun to use and can be countered easily. So let's give them more time to shine before the heavy beasts hit the field.
The most commonly suggested fix for call-in situation (tying call-ins to tiering) wouldn't even be necessary if heavy call-ins were pushed back by 4CPs or so - you'd have to fill the gap with medium armour of your own, which would in turn force you to tech.
Several users mentioned that the heavies appear too soon. I agree with this wholeheartedly. CoH2 does have a faster pace than CoH1 (for comparison, most vehicles were at least Tier 3 in CoH1, which in CoH2 already gives you access to medium tanks). This is actually good, mediums are fun to use and can be countered easily. So let's give them more time to shine before the heavy beasts hit the field.
The most commonly suggested fix for call-in situation (tying call-ins to tiering) wouldn't even be necessary if heavy call-ins were pushed back by 4CPs or so - you'd have to fill the gap with medium armour of your own, which would in turn force you to tech.
7 Nov 2014, 10:52 AM
#43
Posts: 4928
I still vote for Fuel upkeep. Raising the CP's would delay when they enter the fight, but once there the same old problems will still remain. Fuel upkeep on Heavy-Medium (Easy Eight, T-34/85, Panther, etc) and Heavy Tanks (IS-2, Tiger I, Tiger II, etc) would help level the playing field as lost medium tanks wouldn't put you at such a huge disadvantage.
all you filthy hotchkiss lovers need to l2p #TeamPanzerIII
> Kriegsbeute Doctrine|Partisan Rework|British Infantry Rework|Soviet Assault Squad <
7 Nov 2014, 11:19 AM
#44
Posts: 32
I still vote for Fuel upkeep. Raising the CP's would delay when they enter the fight, but once there the same old problems will still remain. Fuel upkeep on Heavy-Medium (Easy Eight, T-34/85, Panther, etc) and Heavy Tanks (IS-2, Tiger I, Tiger II, etc) would help level the playing field as lost medium tanks wouldn't put you at such a huge disadvantage.
I agree with fuel upkeep, possibly per unit of pop used possibly different on the class of tank for example 1 per min for light, 2 for medium, 3 for heavy and possibly 4 for superheavies. of course before takes this out of context this is just an example of how the idea would work. it could be any amount for any number of the vehicles above, e.g 1 for medium and 2 for heavy's. however it could be a base * population so perhaps 0.25 per min per cap for medium and 0.5 per min per cap, so 10 pop for a medium would be 2.5 fuel per min upkeep and for a heavy would be 5 fuel per min.
7 Nov 2014, 13:49 PM
#45
4 Posts: 640 | Subs: 1
Fuel upkeep would be a nice way to soft cap the heavies. Not so sure about mediums, but two t34 85s should definitely not burden the player the same way a Tiger or Jagdtiger do.
I realize HazardousKing said the numbers are just an example, but let's discuss some concrete numbers.
Given an average late game fuel income of around 20-25 per minute (15-20 for OKW), depending on map size and caches, a -5 penalty for heavies would not be as keenly felt by Soviets and Ostheer. While increasing heavy tank penalty to -10 would definitely be felt but it would also completely and irreversibly cripple the already struggling OKW fuel economy.
I realize HazardousKing said the numbers are just an example, but let's discuss some concrete numbers.
Given an average late game fuel income of around 20-25 per minute (15-20 for OKW), depending on map size and caches, a -5 penalty for heavies would not be as keenly felt by Soviets and Ostheer. While increasing heavy tank penalty to -10 would definitely be felt but it would also completely and irreversibly cripple the already struggling OKW fuel economy.
7 Nov 2014, 13:57 PM
#46
Posts: 85
85s on themselves are not ridiculous. DOUBLE T34/85s with MARK VEHICLE are up to the same level as Tigers and IS2s.
You have no clue of what you're talking about.
Soviets will need MUCH MORE micro to deal with this, and it cost much more. So stop saying BS please.
7 Nov 2014, 14:02 PM
#47
Posts: 32
Fuel upkeep would be a nice way to soft cap the heavies. Not so sure about mediums, but two t34 85s should definitely not burden the player the same way a Tiger or Jagdtiger do.
I realize HazardousKing said the numbers are just an example, but let's discuss some concrete numbers.
Given an average late game fuel income of around 20-25 per minute (15-20 for OKW), depending on map size and caches, a -5 penalty for heavies would not be as keenly felt by Soviets and Ostheer. While increasing heavy tank penalty to -10 would definitely be felt but it would also completely and irreversibly cripple the already struggling OKW fuel economy.
well we could give OKW a 33% discount to the fuel upkeep that way it is felt equally(yes I know it might not equal 100% but I really can not be bothered doing the math to calculate the correct discount to make it equal to all other factions).
but a 20-25 fuel per min economy will be hurt by -10 bring it down 40-50% and -5 at 20-25%, now if this is to be implemented the magic number will need to be found I think it may be between -5 and -10.
7 Nov 2014, 14:17 PM
#48
Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2
You have no clue of what you're talking about.
Soviets will need MUCH MORE micro to deal with this, and it cost much more. So stop saying BS please.
Check my playercard and tell me i don't have a clue. Specially when i almost always go with Guard Motor (ISU gets boring and i never liked the IS2).
Without Mark vehicle (Armored Assault) 85s lack extra punch to knock down heavies without taking possible casualties. Bringing them one by one with the PPSH/Radio intercept one, lacks the shock value and you also don't have MV.
IF you werent a blindfolded you would notice what i'm talking about.
My controls weren't working
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.
7 Nov 2014, 14:45 PM
#49
Posts: 21
Well, it is true that Allies are much worse of in the armour department, and it is also true that their anti tank is much worse. But at least Axis get the best non-doctrinal soldiers (Obersoldaten) after a fuel accumulation of 80, so I think that more than compensates for it.
7 Nov 2014, 15:06 PM
#50
2 
Posts: 2181
Check my playercard and tell me i don't have a clue. Specially when i almost always go with Guard Motor (ISU gets boring and i never liked the IS2).
It's true, just look at all those 100% winrates!
7 Nov 2014, 15:09 PM
#51
Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2
It's true, just look at all those 100% winrates!
Allies A.I. OP, plz nerf.
My controls weren't working
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.
10 Nov 2014, 04:43 AM
#52
Posts: 503
Well please explain the axis late game win ratio then.
I would argue that isn't only that way in USF vs Axis due to weaker late game in USF, however just like in vCOH Wehr/USA matchup the Wehr had a clear, demonstrable advantage in late games in that their veteran I only to greater and all new units were elite off the bat. USA had to preserve vet units
10 Nov 2014, 05:40 AM
#53
Posts: 123
I would argue that isn't only that way in USF vs Axis due to weaker late game in USF, however just like in vCOH Wehr/USA matchup the Wehr had a clear, demonstrable advantage in late games in that their veteran I only to greater and all new units were elite off the bat. USA had to preserve vet units
but USA also had calliopes, pershings, ranger and airborne AT squads
and basic things, like sandbags, mortars and snipers.
10 Nov 2014, 06:11 AM
#54
Posts: 2561
And it was just as much bullshit in that game as it is in here. Just because it was in Vcoh doesn't mean it was a good way to balance things.
I would argue that isn't only that way in USF vs Axis due to weaker late game in USF, however just like in vCOH Wehr/USA matchup the Wehr had a clear, demonstrable advantage in late games in that their veteran I only to greater and all new units were elite off the bat. USA had to preserve vet units
10 Nov 2014, 14:35 PM
#55
Posts: 327
There is also the authenticity argument. I didn't want to invoke that because I wanted to focus on balance, but the game is not FUN if all the gameplay is concentrated on a "boss unit".
This, a hundred times. I understand including all the rare superheavy shiny toy armor units like the ISU, KV-2, Jagdtiger, Elefant and King Tiger was good for the devs from marketing point of view, but if they (and we) aspire to have a tactically superior RTS, these units certainly don't contribute to that. In the contrary, they ruin all the hard work of microing and unit preservation while CoH 2 is supposed to be a game where microing and unit preservation is rewarded.
10 Nov 2014, 21:58 PM
#56
Posts: 503
This, a hundred times. I understand including all the rare superheavy shiny toy armor units like the ISU, KV-2, Jagdtiger, Elefant and King Tiger was good for the devs from marketing point of view, but if they (and we) aspire to have a tactically superior RTS, these units certainly don't contribute to that. In the contrary, they ruin all the hard work of microing and unit preservation while CoH 2 is supposed to be a game where microing and unit preservation is rewarded.
While the heavy call ins need work I don't think they ruin hard work of micro and preservation. Jesulin could choose a doc with no tank call ins and best 99% of the players on this forum no matter what heavy tank doctrine we chose. That may be extreme but my point is heavy tanks aren't insta-win I had a game last night where I held 60% of map vs usa player all the way to mid game then I got a tiger to go with my P4. I injured his Sherman and rushed to chase it down as well as blitz past his AT gun as I had routed his indantry and my greens were right behind. Then 2 Jackson's can from nowhere and surprised me. Their 1st salvo took 40% my health. I popped smoke and reversed but he easily chased me down. While doing so I was ale to Faust his Jackson's but they still had enough speed to get one Jackson away before my P4 could take him down. Suddenly I had lost 1 heavy and all I gained was destroying 1 Jackson.
10 Nov 2014, 22:05 PM
#57
Posts: 503
And it was just as much bullshit in that game as it is in here. Just because it was in Vcoh doesn't mean it was a good way to balance things.
And yet the balance between US and Wehr was quite good. I am not saying we need to be like vcoh, just making an illustration/comparison. I agree we need to make USA stronger late game, the thing is that if we are good to huff their late game then we need to lower their early game because they are advantage there.
10 Nov 2014, 22:07 PM
#58
Posts: 1158
your fake stat is wrong, even Jesulin loses. This community is not that big where 1% is a large amount of people. There are more than 1% here than can and likely have beaten him.
29 Jul 2014, 12:16 PM by siuking666:
T34/76 is NOT a joke on my hands; Maybe on your hands you make it suck shit? but on me, No. I can kill a stug with a little micro, go toe to toe with a Panzer 4. Is it a joke? LOL T34/85 is apparently a very good tank. But no one says it "one hit wipe" or elefant penetration; up to a point i think this little medium tank just have too much health and too much firepower with that fuel cost.
10 Nov 2014, 22:20 PM
#59
Posts: 3602 | Subs: 1
And yet the balance between US and Wehr was quite good. I am not saying we need to be like vcoh, just making an illustration/comparison. I agree we need to make USA stronger late game, the thing is that if we are good to huff their late game then we need to lower their early game because they are advantage there.
It is why you don't really need to make them stronger but add a cost to Axis late game survivability. Because all the game mechanics are made to give a 50% chance to Axis to survive early game and go late game. But late game, we aren't anymore to a 50% chance of winning for USF.
If Axis manage to survive early game, USF should also have 50% chance to overcome Axis late units.
The ideal would be to have 4 phases instead of 3 in the typical party. So each phase dominated by a faction is timed: 10-15 minutes early game, it should be also 10-15 minutes late game and next a last phase untimed where both side have equal chance to win the game.
Early: Dominance USF
Mid: 50/50
Late: Dommiance Axis
Ultra-late: 50/50
10 Nov 2014, 23:31 PM
#60
Posts: 503
your fake stat is wrong, even Jesulin loses. This community is not that big where 1% is a large amount of people. There are more than 1% here than can and likely have beaten him.
It wasn't meant to be a stat, obviously. It was a thought experiment nothing more. I'm using him as an example as he is top 5 all factions last I checked.
My point is simply that micro matters even when heavy tanks roll out and to say otherwise is wrong. I agree it gets greatly diminished by the heavies but your reward for good micro is that you will have a couple medium tanks to at least threaten your opponent so he can't blindly rush you and push you back.
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