Obersoldaten and stuff

OK let me repeat the faction design, because people still whine over the fact that they need to build vehicles to kill obersoldaten and that a guard or cons squad doesn't beat a obersoldaten squad.

Think of this as a game with 4 different factions, which have all their unique bonuses and trade offs.
Soviets are more durable, they have 6 men squads, are cheap to reinforce and have the cheapest tanks. Yet they also have some pretty hard counters as units, like shock troops and sniper teams.
They don't bleed manpower as much as axis units do.
Okw have mainly 4 men squads and weapon teams that take long to reinforce , a resource penalty and yet expensive units. For that they get the hardest hitting units + vet 5.

I partly agree with OP on some of the issue


But about Obers - on the face of it they may seem OP. They are certainly more powerful than other infantry units in the game. But:

A) 2 Riflemen with bars can also stand in front of an MG and wipe it and they come at T0 + 15 fuel + muni for BARs. That's much sooner than Obers

B) They come in a faction with mo medium tank (equiv to PIV or T34) that can hurt inf+tanks. You can choose a puma or jagd or panther but there's no anti-inf tank tha can stand up to tanks too.

C) there are other vehicles for anti-inf in OKW but with the 66% fuel rate, it's not possible to get both anti-inf and anti-tank. So Obers are a soft filler for that role.



With respect (seriously, I mean that), I think if you tried some more games as OKW, you'd see how other players handle Obers and get some ideas. And you'd possibly change your opinion a little about them being OP.

I went through the same thing with american units that annoyed me. I played amis and realised they weren't so special and there are counters available.

OK let me repeat the faction design, because people still whine over the fact that they need to build vehicles to kill obersoldaten and that a guard or cons squad doesn't beat a obersoldaten squad.

Think of this as a game with 4 different factions, which have all their unique bonuses and trade offs.
Soviets are more durable, they have 6 men squads, are cheap to reinforce and have the cheapest tanks. Yet they also have some pretty hard counters as units, like shock troops and sniper teams.
They don't bleed manpower as much as axis units do.
Okw have mainly 4 men squads and weapon teams that take long to reinforce , a resource penalty and yet expensive units. For that they get the hardest hitting units + vet 5.

Those "cheapest tanks" come many minutes later than the units that counter them (OKW puma, schreck blobs). Axis bias is real

Okw have mainly 4 men squads and weapon teams that take long to reinforce , a resource penalty (except it's not really, because teching is so cheap) and yet expensive units. For that they get the hardest hitting units + vet 5 + non doctrinal super heavy, a tech structure that can lock down a good portion of the map, free grenade tech, free lmgs on non doctrinal elite infantry, a mobile suppression unit and the cheapest, yet best scaling core infantry in the game .

Corrected in bold.


Also, Obers and Panthers together beat any inf/medium non doctrinal tank combination in the game hands down. OKW players don't need mediums that hurt infantry and tanks.

OK let me repeat the faction design, because people still whine over the fact that they need to build vehicles to kill obersoldaten and that a guard or cons squad doesn't beat a obersoldaten squad.

Think of this as a game with 4 different factions, which have all their unique bonuses and trade offs.
Soviets are more durable, they have 6 men squads, are cheap to reinforce and have the cheapest tanks. Yet they also have some pretty hard counters as units, like shock troops and sniper teams.
They don't bleed manpower as much as axis units do.
Okw have mainly 4 men squads and weapon teams that take long to reinforce , a resource penalty and yet expensive units. For that they get the hardest hitting units + vet 5.

OK, you can talk faction design. There are multiple incorrect statements in your post, but I will not address them here. Here I will refer to game design, specifically, the way resources are meant to work in COH.

Firstly, there is manpower, which is used to purchase any unit which will stay on the battlefield for an extended period of time, regardless of its job. Second, there is Munitions, which is used for 'one-off' abilities that are used to either directly upgrade a unit for the remainder of its existence, or to give a unit the edge in a battle. Finally, there is fuel, which is used to upgrade the scope of your army (tech) and give you access to the more powerful vehicular units in the game.

Units are meant to be countered by other units. In order to allow well-microed armies with differing incomes to stand a chance in a game, Relic implemented a system in which any unit, regardless of cost, can be countered by manpower only units. AT guns counter tanks, MGs counter large amounts of infantry, and indirect fire counters fortifications.

No unit in this game defies this logic. Tanks are powerful units, but can be stopped with no investment besides AT guns (and the nominal fuel cost to tech to the AT guns). Any infantry unit can be hard-countered by a single MG. There is only exception to this rule, and that is when munitions are expended to tip the balance of power in a certain way.

Obers fly against the logic of the game, in a way no other unit does. They cost only manpower, yet cannot be countered by a manpower only investment except with a MUCH larger investment than was spent on the obers. 1 Maxim will die from an ober squad. 1 US mg will die from an ober squad. This would be alright, IF the obers had at some point used munitions to increase their power in some way, but they have not. By arguing that obers are fie because they an be countered by armor, you are directly going against the implicit rules of COH2. This is why many people wish for obers to be changed in some way.

Corrected in bold.


Also, Obers and Panthers together beat any inf/medium non doctrinal tank combination in the game hands down. OKW players don't need mediums that hurt infantry and tanks.

That is also one of the highest resource investments in the game. L2P.

Give Obers 3 men, Gewehr 41s, and a price buff to 320. Allow a 100 munitions upgrade that grants a squad leader with an MG34.

Obers fly against the logic of the game, in a way no other unit does. They cost only manpower, yet cannot be countered by a manpower only investment except with a MUCH larger investment than was spent on the obers. 1 Maxim will die from an ober squad. 1 US mg will die from an ober squad. This would be alright, IF the obers had at some point used munitions to increase their power in some way, but they have not. By arguing that obers are fie because they an be countered by armor, you are directly going against the implicit rules of COH2. This is why many people wish for obers to be changed in some way.

Your statement makes no sense, you complain that Obers can only be beat by a much larger investment than their 400MP cost, but also complain that you can't beat them with a 240MP investment?

No duh your 240MP can't beat their 400MP, they wouldn't be played if they could be beat by a 240MP investment.

Your statement makes no sense, you complain that Obers can only be beat by a much larger investment than their 400MP cost, but also complain that you can't beat them with a 240MP investment?

No duh your 240MP can't beat their 400MP, they wouldn't be played if they could be beat by a 240MP investment.

I am not saying anything about manpower to manpower. Certain units HARDCOUNTER certain other types of units. AN MG is meant to counter any other Infantry unit 1v1. An AT gun, is meant to counter any armored unit, head to head. If you expect any resource investment to only be hardcountered by an equal or greater investment, you are stating that you expect a 720mp 210 KT to only be countered by an equal investment. converted, that is something like 1400MP, which is just silly amounts of AT guns for 1 unit.

This is simply not true with obersoldatan, if you have 1 MG, it cannot counter a single ober except with green cover vs. no cover. on equal grounds, an ober will beat an mg.

EDIT: Another unit that counters its counters is the ISU. This is why it is OP. The new nerf has fixed it pretty well, but the ISU is another example of this phenomenon.

I partly agree with OP on some of the issue


But about Obers - on the face of it they may seem OP. They are certainly more powerful than other infantry units in the game. But:

A) 2 Riflemen with bars can also stand in front of an MG and wipe it and they come at T0 + 15 fuel + muni for BARs. That's much sooner than Obers

B) They come in a faction with mo medium tank (equiv to PIV or T34) that can hurt inf+tanks. You can choose a puma or jagd or panther but there's no anti-inf tank tha can stand up to tanks too.

C) there are other vehicles for anti-inf in OKW but with the 66% fuel rate, it's not possible to get both anti-inf and anti-tank. So Obers are a soft filler for that role.



With respect (seriously, I mean that), I think if you tried some more games as OKW, you'd see how other players handle Obers and get some ideas. And you'd possibly change your opinion a little about them being OP.

I went through the same thing with american units that annoyed me. I played amis and realised they weren't so special and there are counters available.

Thing is, OKW don't lack for anti-infantry even without Obers.

Sturmpios are still powerful. They still get a mobile suppression platform. Volks are still very tough with a free grenade. 3 doctrines have powerful elite infantry, and a fourth a cheap MG. The Flak HT is a terror now. They can also easily lock down a sector against infantry with the T4 building. Luchs, when well microed, is really good too. And it's not like these two vehicles are incredibly expensive, a Flacktrack + Puma combo beats anything until the doctrinal mediums/heavies roll out.

When I play OKW, I very rarely get Obers, because I don't need them. Your other core units can very well beat allied infantry; Obers are just the overkill that allows you to effortlessly pound them into dust and force the allied player(s) to get AI vehicles just to counter your 400mp no muni no fuel supersoldiers. That's just stupid design, sorry. At the very least, Obers should need to invest munitions to get their all-powerful MG34, and IMO their LMG should be nerfed at long range along with every other LMG in the game.

And dammit, the lack of medium tanks is no excuse for OKW having superunits. They got the Puma, which any other faction would kill to have. They got shrecks on basic infantry. They got the best turretless TD in the game. They access a Panther far earlier than Ostheer. The faction is designed to work around that weakness; it doesn't need to also have nigh-invincible supersoldiers on top of that. Especially since Obers are not affected by the ressource penalty in any way.

Also, Obers and Panthers together beat any inf/medium non doctrinal tank combination in the game hands down. OKW players don't need mediums that hurt infantry and tanks.

Combined arms are not meant to be easy to take out, that includes every faction. Any use of combined arms is hard to take out and requires, baiting, enemy mistakes and a portion of RNG.

Give Obers 3 men, Gewehr 41s, and a price buff to 320. Allow a 100 munitions upgrade that grants a squad leader with an MG34.

Give shocks 5 men, Mosin rifles and price of 300. Allow a 100 munitions upgrade that grants them ppsh.
Give Panzergrens 3 Men, K98k, allow them a 100 munitions upgrade that gives them Stg44.

Firstly, there is manpower, ....

Ok, I've spent 917 hours(+about 100 hours in the alpha) into this game, compared to your 548. I know how resources work and what they are for.

Any infantry unit can be hard-countered by a single MG. There is only exception to this rule, and that is when munitions are expended to tip the balance of power in a certain way.

Any unit with smoke can counter a single mg. Two cons squads can counter Axis HMGs. And how often I did the good old shock into HMG smoke, throw nade wipe.

Obers fly against the logic of the game, in a way no other unit does. They cost only manpower, yet cannot be countered by a manpower only investment except with a MUCH larger investment than was spent on the obers. 1 Maxim will die from an ober squad. 1 US mg will die from an ober squad. This would be alright, IF the obers had at some point used munitions to increase their power in some way, but they have not. By arguing that obers are fie because they an be countered by armor, you are directly going against the implicit rules of COH2. This is why many people wish for obers to be changed in some way.

Obers excel at their optimum range, thats the LMG design.
A Tip: 2 HMGs positioned away from each other will counter the Obersoldaten squad.
Obersoldaten can be countered with manpower only investments.
Maxim + any squad. Shock troops. Supported snipers. Mortars bleed endless manpower and require constant repositioning in order to prevent a wipe. Yesterdady I lost one Obersoldaten squad to two cons, because I was outplayed and made mistakes.
Paras with lmgs, riflemen with lmgs also run into any hmg and wipe it. They moreover can take on obersoldaten.
Yes they require munition investment, but yet again that's the price they have to pay for the fact that they superior to any axis standard infantry.
You all cry for the fact that the can't be beaten by a single squad of whatever.

Balance will be achieved for you if a single riflemen or con squad can chase off a Obersoldaten squad.


Obers are hard countered by vehicles, that includes the cheapest fuel investments you have. Soft counters exist, like for every other units by combined infantry arms.

1-2 obersoldaten squads is alright, but if it goes beyond that then it gets frustrating.

This post is more about LMGs in General and stuff that makes this game piss me off.

1. Obersoladaten- I don't care how expensive it is, it is not ok to have a unit that completely negates infantry thats just bad design, seriously everything melts to its LMG even in green cover, we're talking about a unit that can fight HMG's head on. Its especially worst for Soviets then Americans because their core infantry is alot weaker and doesn't have any way to scale in to the mid/late game. Guards use to be ok against them then the dp was nerfed (lol) because we all know Guards use to be op, shocks are very situational against obers, even with smoke grenades you will still probably lose because chances are the ober squad isn't alone and/or its on a open ground giving the obers time to reposition and shred shocks. Snipers would be ok, but once again people these days just blob obers with another squad and with volks/pfusiliers and snipers are useless vs blobs. Tanks are supposedly their weakness, but thats not the case because shrek volks blobs and reketen werfers combined with low health pool and armor of allied tanks means that obers won't really be effected by armor. Americans its not so bad because rifle men are pretty good and bars are getting buffed and airborn with m1919 or riflemen with m1919 are pretty good vs obers, but it is still something that needs to be looked at.

2. LMG- even with the so called "nerf" lmgs are still king of the battlefield as they have been since march, Every faction except the soviets, has a non doc lmg so they get shafted in this department (lets face it no one is going to be cautious about guards with dp's, and they're doctrinal) has a good lmg, the mg42, m34, and the bar. So they pretty much get to attack move every where with little to no micro requirements, while soviets have to use cheesy gimicks like maxim spam, sniper abuse, and the isu152. If relic gave the soviets a decent all round infatry the scales well in the mid/late game people wouldn't have to deal with constant abuse and come to the forums and cry how op snipers and the isu 152 are. Its not fair or fun to have to micro infantry around all the time while your opponent can just mow you down with his lmgs.



3. Teirs- In general the only faction that has a shitty tier design is the soviets( Agian), although i think ost t4 is still to expansive, but its espically bad for the soviets because it cost 120 fuel and 230 mp for t3 and t4 and soemthing like 120 seconds to build them. To make matters worst they all have lack luster units, the t34 has bad armor and health, its ROF was recently nerfed and it gets stomped by okw all of the time because of volks blobs and pumas (Puma is ridiculous by the way) against ost it not as bad, but its not worth using it against them ether, I can't even remember the last time I seen some one use it. The t70 is a good unit but comes to late, you might as well get a t34 for 30 more fuel, and the m5 haltrack is not worth it, the aa upgrade is decent but the unit it self just isnt worth it because it comes to late to, and delays a t34, so its in the same boat as the t70. t4 has the su76 which is just lol, the su85 has been consistently nerfed over the past year, while we seen the panther buffed recently and blitzkreig buffed as well, its time to give the su85 the buff its needs to remain competitive 120 fuel for a unit that has only at ability and its lacklust at that, it seems to like missing or just doesnt like to penetrate, the katyusha is a ok unit i seen it do ok in some games and awful in others.
t1 has snipers which are fine imo, because they are the only unit that kills something, penals are in a wierd spot I've seen people use them but they just aren't worth it they lack any long range dps and they dont have the armor of shocks to duke it out in close range with infantry, or any useful utility like at nades, penals should be buffed to be a long range unit. M3 is fine. In t2 I never liked the Maxmim design, even since closed beta i hated it, I want a area of denial HMG, but I guess its fine as it is currently, apart form it not retreating when ever a squad member dies, but that seems to be fixed in the beta. The soviet mortar is the worst mortar in the game its bad Rof and the accuracy doesn't seem to be any better than the ostheer mortar, speaking of the ostheer mortar, its ROF is way to high its as bad if not worst when a pak reaches vet3, the zis is the worst at gun in the game just because it gets an artillary barrage that not even that good, its suppose to be an at gun so why does it have some thing that fit its role? It wouldn't be so bad if the barrage was acutally good, The pak has stun rounds, 57mm has 70 range and ap rounds and the 43 has camo and can go in buildings, the zis? nothing not only that its rof is just bad and with the nerf to its vet 1 ability its a pain to use.



3. Cons LOL the king of kings, I'm going to dwell on this its been said time and time again, but I'll say this forcing players to play a faction with an infantry unit that cost 240mp and with 6 men that negates its so called " cheaper" myth that doesn't exist is bad faction design, they just end up bleeding you man power mid/late game because they don't do anything, they're just there to throw at nades at that point.


4. Commanders again this has been said time and time again, the commander system is bland and boring, I hate to say this but why would you dumb down the coh1 commander system? it was perfect, just building on top of it and improving it, not only that alot of the commanders are simply terrible and need a over haul. Another user whiteflash made a perfect example of how the coh2 commander system should've been I can't find it though.


5.Call ins- Soviets being the main offender of this because of their bad stock units, Just revert them back to how it was in beta, for example the t34/85 was unlocked at 8 cp and you had to build t3 and build them from that, its a simple solution to this problem and will help solve alot of the core problems the sovets have with there stock units.

Edit

4. magic- I forgot about this point as well, units like falls and JLI popping out of buildings has to go, I don't know who thought that was a good idea , but it has to stop.

Proof of whine posting that can blow blance away pronto if listened to. Strong bias.

That is also one of the highest resource investments in the game. L2P.

Obers(400mp+0mun+0fu)+Panther(490mp+0mun+175fu)+ T2/T3(200mp+0mun+40fu)+ T4(200mp+0mun+80fu)=
1290mp - 0mun - 295fu

PnzGrens[no lmg](340mp+0mun+0fu)+Panther(490mp+0mun+175fu)+ T1(80mp+0mun+10fu)+ T2(120mp+0mun+15fu)+ T4(160mp+0mun+30fu)+ tech costs(600mp+0mun+160fu)=
1790mp - 0mun - 390fu

Shocks[no lmg](440mp+0mun+0fu)+T34/76(310mp+0mun+100fu)+ T2(160mp+0mun+50fu)+ T3(240mp+0mun+120fu)=
1150mp - 0mun - 270fu

Paras(380mp+120mun+0fu)+M36(260mp+0mun+125fu)+ Lieutenant(200mp+0mun+50fu)+ Major(240mp+0mun+90fu)=
1080mp - 120mun - 265fu



Hmmm, yeah, one of the biggest investments in the game. Anyone wanna breakdown the DPS per point of MP/fu and the penetration per point of MP/fu?


L2p indeed. Lolz.

Obers(400mp+0mun+0fu)+Panther(490mp+0mun+175fu)+ T2/T3(200mp+0mun+40fu)+ T4(200mp+0mun+80fu)=
1290mp - 0mun - 295fu

PnzGrens[no lmg](340mp+0mun+0fu)+Panther(490mp+0mun+175fu)+ T1(80mp+0mun+10fu)+ T2(120mp+0mun+15fu)+ T4(160mp+0mun+30fu)+ tech costs(600mp+0mun+160fu)=
1790mp - 0mun - 390fu

Shocks[no lmg](440mp+0mun+0fu)+T34/76(310mp+0mun+100fu)+ T2(160mp+0mun+50fu)+ T3(240mp+0mun+120fu)=
1150mp - 0mun - 270fu

Paras(380mp+120mun+0fu)+M36(260mp+0mun+125fu)+ Lieutenant(200mp+0mun+50fu)+ Major(240mp+0mun+90fu)=
1080mp - 120mun - 265fu



Hmmm, yeah, one of the biggest investments in the game. Anyone wanna breakdown the DPS per point of MP/fu and the penetration per point of MP/fu?


L2p indeed. Lolz.

Yeah, you forgot the OKW fuel income in your analysis, smart guy. That 295 fuel is accumulating much harder, and YOU KNOW IT. Further, according to your figures, the fuel investment for paras and shocks is the lowest, so is the manpower.
I played alot the beta and seems that is going to implement some adequate changes. So all your allied whiners shut your pieholes and L2P. Don't influence a game that is going to be fixed.

Yeah, you forgot the OKW fuel income in your analysis, smart guy. That 295 fuel is accumulating much harder, and YOU KNOW IT. Further, according to your figures, the fuel investment for paras and shocks is the lowest, so is the manpower.
I played alot the beta and seems that is going to implement some adequate changes. So all your allied whiners shut your pieholes and L2P. Don't influence a game that is going to be fixed.

Go T3 muni>fuel. Problem solved. Smart guy.

Yeah, you forgot the OKW fuel income in your analysis, smart guy. That 295 fuel is accumulating much harder, and YOU KNOW IT. Further, according to your figures, the fuel investment for paras and shocks is the lowest, so is the manpower.
I played alot the beta and seems that is going to implement some adequate changes. So all your allied whiners shut your pieholes and L2P. Don't influence a game that is going to be fixed.

lol. using okw fuel argument. doesnt help ur argument. OKW have the cheapest tech in game.