Heavy tanks - easy use

Hey guys.

I'm thinking a lot about how heavy tanks can be better implemented in the game, cause right now it's always coming down to getting that heavy tank and just watching it taking out units or tanks.

The major problem here is that it requires next to 0 skill to use these tanks.
A jagdtiger has 85 range, so it can easily take away allies armor without really having to do anything.
It auto-fires, so you just watch your flanks and grab popcorn.
ISU just plows away infantry without really any effort.

YES you have to watch your flanks and watch ofr enemy attacks, but c'mon guys, don't exaggerate that, it's bloody easy to use.

I think it should require more action from the player itself.
Auto fire on such big tanks who do major damage isn't a good thing imo.

So what am I really saying?

Heavies should not always be 'the way to go' in the late game, but should be a well thought decision because it should need more skill to handle these.

Possible examples

Make jagdtigers not auto-fire, but need more mouse-handlings to kill other tanks.
Make ISU have manual reload of 5 seconds, not to nerf it but to require it more skill.

e: I also like the idea of mobility & longer repair time. There is is no negative side in calling in a heavy, and these ideas would definitely help that.

I would like to know what other people have to say about this.

Thanks in advance.

More cooldown time between shots and shots. The 5 seconds would be good for all super-heavy tanks.

Just limit them to one per player at time, because that is enough, really.

Just limit them to one per player at time, because that is enough, really.

I don't agree, it should be limited in time (longer cooldown, like 15min for ele's, 10 for tigers, ...) + one/player at a time.
Now it's just 'oh my Jagd is out? Lemme click dat button to get a second one' (teamgames)

Well yes, but one isu/tiger/anything is easier to destroy than 2 supporting each other. Eventually they will run out of fuel if they keep overextending those heavies. And when you can´t get another one on field, you are forced to tier up and get some medium tanks to support it, which, imo, is how it should be.

Edit: Also, when you lose your heavy tank and call in a new one, this new one will still have to travel to the front, giving more time for enemy to prepare. Those units who killed the first heavy will now probably have more veterancy than before so you have to be even more careful with your new heavy.

Heavy tanks are a no-brainer.

Their main advantage, as I see it, is that they can go in, take out a tank or two, and back out with 10% hp and get repaired to full, for free.

This mechanic is the main reason why the US late game is bad: they lack heavy tanks, and heavy tanks are simply too hard to counter properly. It's the same reason why team games are heavily swayed towards Axis (though Soviet does have some heavy tanks as well).

Simply making heavy call-ins require tech buildings won't fix the problem. Basically, it can only be fixed with a larger overhaul of unit stats and costs.

My opinion is that heavy tanks should not have such a huge HP advantage over medium tanks. They can take a huge amount of penetrating shots, and it's simply ridiculous. The main advantage of heavy tanks should be penetration/range and armor. By making heavy tanks closer to medium tanks in performance, they could be made cheaper. I think this change would be nice, as I also dislike the fact that you almost can't afford to field any other vehicles if you get a heavy tank. It makes the gameplay way too dumb. Finally, infantry soft counters such as AT guns would also become more viable in the late game.

Any thoughts on this? The above could also be accompanied with adding a cost to repairs (but might not be necessary).

(PS: limiting the amount of tanks you can get is a pretty stale fix and does not change the origin of why heavy tanks are frustrating to play against.)

[...]

Possible examples

Make jagdtigers not auto-fire, but need more mouse-handlings to kill other tanks.
Make ISU have manual reload of 5 seconds, not to nerf it but to require it more skill.

I would like to know what other people have to say about this.

Thanks in advance.

1) It is simple to CTRL+1(2,3,4...) your single Jagdtiger and then just 1+RMB on enemy tank. If it got away 1+S.

2) Pretty much the same: CTRL+1; 1+RMB; 1+R(eload);

Conclusion: That will punish only bad players. Is that your intension?

Counter-suggestions:
1) Nerf heavy tanks mobility.

With mobility nerfed they can't escape that easily when they rode head on right into your defences. Not unless they took certain amount of beating.

I think that Acceleration is the thing to nerf. Maybe max speed, but just a little.
If you stopped to increase your accuracy, you should have hard time to get that enough speed to prevent flanking of medium tanks.

2) Nerf repairing time for heavy tanks.
Right now they can soak high amount of damage, repair in moderate time and get back to fight.
That makes opposite side to bleed on resources, while heavy tank user doesn't get punished. That is OK, because... that's what heavy armor done for.

But the UPTIME of heavy armor should be lower so resource bleed/time ratio would be lower too.

Want increase uptime of your heavies? Invest MP and PopCap into engineers => less heavies on the battlefield.

3) For Jagdtiger (vehicle, that don't need to close in/get back/repair no matter what are surronding landscape) make an ability that allows to fire single shot through shot blockers (not my suggestion).

With munitions income nerfed it would be a struggle between this ability, schreks upgrades and grenade uses. Which would make Jagdtiger sometimes to come out from behind of that building.

Overall conclusion:
Heavy tanks performance and useage is nerfed without nerfing any technical characteristics (damage/penetration/armor/HP), so they would be as same as powerfull for their cost, but quite harder to use and easier to lose if used wrong.

Just a correction; Jagdtiger has a range of 85 while Elefant and ISU have 70.

Taking ideas from a diffrent game, namley the WarGame series. In that game tanks are very effective, if you know how to use them. On the other hand they are a waste in the wrong hands.

This is in my mind made a by the fact that they are: weak up close, and have multiple counters that aren't tanks, being taken out with some ease by infantry in heavy cover. On the other hand in that game infantry caught out in the open by tanks is dead.


So maybe the fix would be to make AT infantry more potent and give AT guns a longer range. Forcing the tanks to use tactics and mobility to get to a point where they can be used efficently. Maybe doing something to change how non-vehicle AT handles cover. Say a Zis-gun out in the open would be quite easily taken out by a P-iv but on the other hand a Zis-gun in good position would win against a PzIV.

How to do this? Havent the faintest clue.

Great ideas, I definitely like the sounds of adding more interaction to them instead of just put them and leave them. Alternatively you could remove the auto attack from the ISU so you have to right click or attack ground.

Regardless, I think they need to have a huge nerf to their actual stats to make them not so dominant.

A jagdtiger has 85 range, and ISU&elephant has 70, pak43 has 80. BTW, THE ELEPHANT HAS BEEN USLESS FOR A LONG TIME.
Just limit to 1 at time per player. It will be ok.

A jagdtiger has 85 range, and ISU&elephant has 70, pak43 has 80. BTW, THE ELEPHANT HAS BEEN USLESS FOR A LONG TIME.
Just limit to 1 at time per player. It will be ok.

but what about my jagdtiger dispatch bulletins then

Porygon please remove yourself out of any constructive thread and don't bother replying on threads I start.
Thank you.

And that's what I mean ElSayer - It shouldn't be that easy to CTRL + 1 + click on enemy. It's about building in a mechanic like there is on the Sturmtiger, the manual reload. You have to control the sturmtiger, not just leaving it in the back like a jagd or ISU.
Also, CTRL + 1 + attack + back + stop + reload requires already some more action than it is now - nothing.

Also, it's absolutely not true that calling in heavy after heavy is called overextending.
That's a wrong usage of the word. Losing a heavy is indeed a drawback, but not really a big drawback if you can call in another heavy right away. And in modes like 2v2 the way to the battlefield isn't that long. Like, 10 seconds.

e: Edited the range of Jagd

All heavy tanks should decrease resource income.
The more overpowered the tanks is, higher resource income penalty.

All heavy tanks should decrease resource income.
The more overpowered the tanks is, higher resource income penalty.

The game really needs some sort of fuel upkeep. I don't think heavy tanks can be any weaker without being underwhelming. The problem is that they are too good financially as the game progresses. That's just not right!

They can take a hell lot of damage while putting some out then retreat and repair for 0 cost. Mediums are more likely to lose a tank here or there even as they fight infantry. So they are atleast victim to some sort of attrition.

If heavy tanks started to drain resources to some extent (atleast more then mediums). Then it would allow mediums and lighter vehicles to actually keep up their numbers against heavies rather then the heavy critical mass we see now.

One option could be introduce friendly crush on heavy tanks, moving troops closer while the tank is in motion and you lose a model under the tracks. Especially on engineers repairing and when in motion that way it wont be a simple click on the map unless you want it to potentially path over your pak guns and wipe em out!

All heavy tanks should decrease resource income.
The more overpowered the tanks is, higher resource income penalty.

Yes... You kill one heavy tank, and the enemy can simply replace it with another, no sweat. Having the economy to send out one heavy tank after another should not be possible...

Hey guys.

I'm thinking a lot about how heavy tanks can be better implemented in the game, cause right now it's always coming down to getting that heavy tank and just watching it taking out units or tanks.

The major problem here is that it requires next to 0 skill to use these tanks.
A jagdtiger has 85 range, so it can easily take away allies armor without really having to do anything.
It auto-fires, so you just watch your flanks and grab popcorn.
ISU just plows away infantry without really any effort.

YES you have to watch your flanks and watch ofr enemy attacks, but c'mon guys, don't exaggerate that, it's bloody easy to use.

I think it should require more action from the player itself.
Auto fire on such big tanks who do major damage isn't a good thing imo.

So what am I really saying?

Heavies should not always be 'the way to go' in the late game, but should be a well thought decision because it should need more skill to handle these.

Possible examples

Make jagdtigers not auto-fire, but need more mouse-handlings to kill other tanks.
Make ISU have manual reload of 5 seconds, not to nerf it but to require it more skill.

e: I also like the idea of mobility & longer repair time. There is is no negative side in calling in a heavy, and these ideas would definitely help that.

I would like to know what other people have to say about this.

Thanks in advance.

Nice ideas !

Perhaps there was something wrong with my wording, but I meant if you indeed do overextend with your heavy tanks (and thus getting them killed) one after another, you will run out of fuel pretty soon, seeing as each has a cost of over 200 fuel.

Im totally fine with increasing the cooldown of call-in tanks as well, but limiting them to one at time should be the first step, imo.