New thought on WFA vehicle balance - repairing

I agree with your point OP, but I think you are one-sided. Going for the heavy tanks means you are sacrificing short-term vehicle presence, not only giving the same micro-advantage to the US-player, but also having a MP-drain running. Generally the crew repair ability is less micro-intensive than constantly thinking of where you have your pios. If you look at infantry and arty the allies are also the least demanding. US and Soviet on average have larger and sturdier squads, making them less suspectible to wipes. Their superior arty can be a really be a pain if used right.

Their superior arty can be a really be a pain if used right.

What superior arty? Axis arty is better.

lolwat

B4 and Priests absolutely murder axis heavies very, very quickly. let alone weaker stuff.

What superior arty? Axis arty is better.

Do you even B-4?!

What superior arty? Axis arty is better.

120mm > 81mm
204mm > OH-Howie
Priest > N/A
US small Howie > OKW one

120mm > 81mm
204mm > OH-Howie
Priest > N/A
US small Howie > OKW one

Doctrinal vs non Doctrinal, 400 MP vs 240 81mm>82mm
Point for you, but when is the last time you saw Counter Attack in 1v1?
Priest< Walking Stuka
Both are inferior to Mortars

Axis off maps are also better

Doctrinal vs non Doctrinal, 400 MP vs 240 81mm>82mm
Point for you, but when is the last time you saw Counter Attack in 1v1?
Priest< Walking Stuka
Both are inferior to Mortars

Axis off maps are also better

Not considering off-map, your conclusion is obviously solely based on Stuka being OP. In large games, the stuka is inferior to priests due two facts, it is weak against tanks and have short range. Both US and Soviet have better howies than their respective counterparts. With the 120mm included, mortars also. In addition, the katuysha is better than the werfer. In short, allies have a equal or better unit to compared to every piece of axis arty. And for the record, cost is not the concern here, micro is.

The synergy between the priest and B4 is vastly superior than anything axis can come up with in large games. The immobility of heavy tanks adds to this point. As others mention, it can devastate even heavy tanks, and I doubt you've been on the receiving end of this combo. When it comes to off-map, this is much easier to avoid, and its heavily limited by munitons.

With smaller squads, the potency of arty is of course also increased.

I understand where our disconnect is now. I don't play 3v3 or 4v4. In 1v1 and 2v2 the only Arty you're likely to see are walking stuka and katy (plus mortars) and rarely a Priest or B4 (certainly no Priest and B4 combo). In the context of 1v1 and 2v2, the stronger Axis arty is more accessible than the strong Allied arty.

I actually have seen a Priest + B4 combo in a 2v2 once! But it's definitely not a normal part of the Meta.

I understand where our disconnect is now. I don't play 3v3 or 4v4. In 1v1 and 2v2 the only Arty you're likely to see are walking stuka and katy (plus mortars) and rarely a Priest or B4 (certainly no Priest and B4 combo). In the context of 1v1 and 2v2, the stronger Axis arty is more accessible than the strong Allied arty.

I still disagree with you. While the stuka is strong, allied arty is still the strongest as a whole. The potency of their arty is further increased by smaller german squads, which itself is more micro-intensive, and and less mobile tanks. As OP argue, once you see heavies the axis have a micro-advantage. My main point is that the axis have sacrificed short-term vehicles to gain that advantage. When a game has progressed to that stage, arty is more likely produced by allied players, and will therefore mitigate the advantage. End-game arty is without doubt in allied favour. And of course, if the allied player has failed to gain any advantage while the axis player has saved up resources, he probably is the worse player. The reason why I bring up larger games, is due to heavies being more common there, and the micro-advantage being more pronouced, according to OP.

Bottom line is that I do not think there is any inherent weakness with asymmetrical factions, even in terms of micro, which OP basically argue against. That being said, I think US deserve the Pershing.

120mm > 81mm
204mm > OH-Howie
Priest > N/A
US small Howie > OKW one

81mm> 82mm
204mm isn't equel than the OH howie, the 152mm is.
Priest is a cool unit, but stuka works better for it's cost.

81mm> 82mm
204mm isn't equel than the OH howie, the 152mm is.
Priest is a cool unit, but stuka works better for it's cost.

Every static artillery is useless as soon as the opponent has a doctrine with a recon aircraft and some off map strike, which in a 2v2 is probably around 80% anyways (it´s enough if one has a recon aircraft in a doc and the other one has offmap strikes). :/

81mm> 82mm
204mm isn't equel than the OH howie, the 152mm is.
Priest is a cool unit, but stuka works better for it's cost.

I have already answered this. Again: the 204mm is the best howie for soviet, 152 is the best for OH. Thats why I compare it, and it is superior. Soviet also has the 120 mm mortar available. You dont comment on my other comparisons, which I take as you agree.

Whats the problem with stuka in this regard? It slows down teching to heavy tanks, which basically nullifies OPs argument. It extends the US medium tank window considerably, making OKW/OH more micro-intensive. It's also weak against tanks and has short range in a potential arty-war.

Generally the crew repair ability is less micro-intensive than constantly thinking of where you have your pios. If you look at infantry and arty the allies are also the least demanding. US and Soviet on average have larger and sturdier squads, making them less suspectible to wipes. Their superior arty can be a really be a pain if used right.

Your pios are probably where you last ordered them to go? You can also use control groups for your repairing units when you have vehicles in the field, I know I do. You just U-click your tank to where it isnt dangerous and order your pios to repair, takes 1 sec at most. Effectiveness of artillery imo has nothing to do with vehicle repairing, its not like allied players dont have to reposition away from barraged areas as you make it sound.

To better illustrate what I mean I am copying here something I wrote up in another thread:



Now compare that to the USF vehicles. You need more of them to attack, which means each vehicle has to be pathed by you taking into account dangers for each. Then you retreat them (hopefully all survive). You can't de-crew until they get to the destination and can't repair until the de-crew is complete. You have two extra commands that each have a minimum of time (de-crew and crew) that have to wait for the vehicle to be in position and can't be stacked in addition to the orders to retreat and repair. (What!? I just lost another squad while trying to repair these three glass cannons?! F-ing "different" faction design!)

During this time, the crew and its veterancy is now exposed to fire and to GTFO they have to jump back in and only then can you retreat them.

And you have to do all of this extra micro to more units than the axis does. That is as bad in 1v1 for a player as it is in 4v4 where it just gets compounded over 4 probably more casual players.

And remember, additional micro is not a matter of arithmetic or geometric increases in difficulty but an exponential progression. Every person can handle only so many APMs (actions per minute). Every action you add to a task reduces their apms available for something else. If US vehicles already have more micro requirements than axis (and they do since they are both more fragile and you have to use more of them) then adding a "balancing" mechanic with EVEN MORE actions gives the veneer of balance, but in the hands of the average player they are just plain harder to use, easier to lose, and require more work.

Dude, ever tried using your rear echelons for repairing? You can shift click them, too, if you are to lazy for crew repairs...

Maybe you guys have realized this already, but a good tip for microing your crew repairs is to hit shift and right click after they decrew so that they will get back in as soon as repairs are done. That way you won't forget about them and you know when repairs are done since the unit icon reappears in the top right.

This is what I always do, but you have to wait 1-2 seconds for the "repair" to turn into "recrew", and that time does add up.

I have already answered this. Again: the 204mm is the best howie for soviet, 152 is the best for OH. Thats why I compare it, and it is superior. Soviet also has the 120 mm mortar available. You dont comment on my other comparisons, which I take as you agree.

Whats the problem with stuka in this regard? It slows down teching to heavy tanks, which basically nullifies OPs argument. It extends the US medium tank window considerably, making OKW/OH more micro-intensive. It's also weak against tanks and has short range in a potential arty-war.

Stuka isn't doctrinal and it's the best artie in the game.

Want a B4 or howie? No heavy tanks for you. Good luck taking on a Jagdtiger or King Tiger.

Your pios are probably where you last ordered them to go? You can also use control groups for your repairing units when you have vehicles in the field, I know I do. You just U-click your tank to where it isnt dangerous and order your pios to repair, takes 1 sec at most. Effectiveness of artillery imo has nothing to do with vehicle repairing, its not like allied players dont have to reposition away from barraged areas as you make it sound.

My point is that pios fulfill several roles, meaning they're not available to every single tank all over the map at all times, and having to produce a weak unit just for repairs is not an advantage. You have two ways of repairing instead of one, which is a good thing. Why do you think it is a doctrinal ability for OKW? I never commented on arty in regards with crew repairs, so I think you have misunderstood something with your last comment.

Stuka isn't doctrinal and it's the best artie in the game.

Want a B4 or howie? No heavy tanks for you. Good luck taking on a Jagdtiger or King Tiger.

I already answered this, please read my comments. Stuka slows down teching, which means heavies come later, and thereby mitigating the micro-advantage. It also gives Allied mediums a larger window to roam freely. This shifts the advantage to the Allied player and it means the german infantry-only player bleed MP.

My point is that pios fulfill several roles, meaning they're not available to every single tank all over the map at all times, and having to produce a weak unit just for repairs is not an advantage. You have two ways of repairing instead of one, which is a good thing. Why do you think it is a doctrinal ability for OKW? I never commented on arty in regards with crew repairs, so I think you have misunderstood something with your last comment.

Sure pios have other things to do than repairing but when something needs repairing you can be pretty sure your grenadiers ain´t gonna do it. So I wouldn´t say it´s a bad idea to train maybe second one when you have heavy tanks on the field. Also, while the actual process of repairing might take some time, the order can be given very fast even to multiple vehicles via shift click.

With usf there is this delay before you can queue up the recrew command for vehicle crews which - with multiple shermans for example - begins to add up. Now I don´t think this is game breaking, but maybe still something worth thinking about, as the usf usually need to pursue quality over quantity with their tanks. Not only are your tanks squishier than german heavies, they also require more attention simply because there are more of them to take care of. Add to that the rear exposing pathfinding and micro intensive repairing and you might have a disadvantage.