New thought on WFA vehicle balance - repairing

One of the arguments for the current balance is that USF vehicles are in a fine place because their "medium" (vulnerable) status is balanced by the ability for the crew to repair. Thinking about that mechanic I realize it is possible this is true but at a substantially higher skill level than is actually implied by obvious vulnerability of the unit.

The vehicles, like many of the Soviet tanks, can be balanced in the very best of hands because they are still effective if microed well. Leave aside argument that this doesn't address the imbalance most less-than-great-micro players will feel in the units, the crew-repair mechanic actually exacerbates the problem.

We know the vehicles have to be microed well. We know that they have less pop allowing for more of them as a balance. But each added vehicle creates exponential increases in micro (it becomes harder and harder to squeeze APMs into each available second) and practice. But now one of the "balance" ideas given to compensate for the vehicle weakness is a mechanic that requires.... even more micro. It is further a weakness because you have to expose your crews while doing it.

This is great for those who can handle it but for the rest of us it is a mechanic that is actually exacerbating our problem which is that we already have to do more micro and more combined arms than the super troops and super tanks on the other side.

Why shouldn't the US get a repair facility/truck instead? The balance aspect is the same (repairThat is much closer to the actual US armor strength in WWII. The US excelled at damaged vehicle recovery and repair. Something that actually wasn't the case for the Axis.

I know this is a fantasy. Relic has a fetish for things as they are. But the stats and player choices says something different.

Come on, you are whining about pushing 1 button, when finished repairing let them enter again and thats it! How is there a lot of Micro required?
You would just the same way drive your panther out of combat and use pioneers to repair it, except with US u just let the crew out.
I dont see any point to this post...

That's rather unrealistic -given relic needs to integrate an extra repair facility/truck- with questionable profit.

Crew repair is nothing more than 2 button presses and shouldn't cost to much APM for new players if the following things are smoothed out:

-allow queuing of the "exit vehicle" ability
-remove the 1-2 second delay after crew exits a vehicle and starts repairing (so you can give the "enter vehicle" command immediately afterwards with shift-click)
-repair vehicles automatically if rear echelon squads exits vehicle (annoying if you swap the crew of the M20 for example)

USF vehicles are amongst the most cost effective ones. You won't find a better tank destroyer than the Jackson for the price, same for the Sherman or the Scott. They are all vehicles with a high damage output, but none of them are particularly resilient. There is a good synergy with the Riflemen though, as these are some of the toughest infantry and at Vet1 get a vehicle snare (which by now finally is pretty reliable).
Both new factions are far more reliant on combined arms, just in different ways. USF needs a Rifle screen for their low HP, high dmg, high range medium vehicles. OKW needs a diverse infantry selection supplemented by some vehicles for either higher mobility (Puma, Flak HT), heavier hitting (Jagdpanzer IV) or roles that infantry does not fulfil (Sturmtiger, Walking Stuka, King Tiger).
Both factions play very differently from the older ones and requrie the player to adapt to a new playstyle. Trying to use those units in the old factions way (aka spamming only Shermans and rushing in with them) does not work that well as doing the same with PIVs. Even E8 Sherman spam is inferior in most cases to a mix of E8, Jackson and M8A1.

The repair is not to counteract their lower durability or whatever. It's just there as a faction flavor, like OKW has 5 vet levels and the other factions have snipers, mortars and such...

-remove the 1-2 second delay after crew exits a vehicle and starts repairing (so you can give the "enter vehicle" command immediately afterwards with shift-click)

The delay is there to prevent abuse. There was a time when leaving was instant and there was no re-enter timer. That can be heavily abused ;p

I'm sure I'm going to catch some heat over this but I'm really liking the USF armor. I think the only balancing thing that needs to be done is enabling the Sherman to pop smoke on the move again.

what is the point of this. usf crew can repair. and with vet will instant repair any critical

I guess I wass wrong.

There are no problems with the game currently.

People are flocking to play all game modes and with all factions. MVgame.

I'm sure I'm going to catch some heat over this but I'm really liking the USF armor. I think the only balancing thing that needs to be done is enabling the Sherman to pop smoke on the move again.

usf tanks are great! until german start getting sreks on all their volks. deploy panthers, tigers, kt's, and elephant, stuka, jt.

jacksson is great. but it dies way to fast. most maps don't allow max range. even at max range, it bounces. then axis players will move their tanks

Pershing plz relic. it is needed in 4v4's. axis can spam tigers and super heavies. y cant usf spam a pershing. its not even op. it between a panther and a tiger

Yea, you are correct. I guess I should be more specific. In 2v2's with a Soviet partner the USF armor really gets to shine. All bets are off for other game modes.

I think OP does raise a valid point in that it is indeed much easier to micro one sturdy heavy tank than it is microing multiple fragile medium tanks simultaneously, especially since the player has to fight against pathfinding too. There is not much room for mistakes and guy with the heavy tank has plenty of time to execute all kinds of maneuvers with his other units while you waste seconds giving repair orders.

One of the arguments for the current balance is that USF vehicles are in a fine place because their "medium" (vulnerable) status is balanced by the ability for the crew to repair. Thinking about that mechanic I realize it is possible this is true but at a substantially higher skill level than is actually implied by obvious vulnerability of the unit.

The vehicles, like many of the Soviet tanks, can be balanced in the very best of hands because they are still effective if microed well. Leave aside argument that this doesn't address the imbalance most less-than-great-micro players will feel in the units, the crew-repair mechanic actually exacerbates the problem.

We know the vehicles have to be microed well. We know that they have less pop allowing for more of them as a balance. But each added vehicle creates exponential increases in micro (it becomes harder and harder to squeeze APMs into each available second) and practice. But now one of the "balance" ideas given to compensate for the vehicle weakness is a mechanic that requires.... even more micro. It is further a weakness because you have to expose your crews while doing it.

This is great for those who can handle it but for the rest of us it is a mechanic that is actually exacerbating our problem which is that we already have to do more micro and more combined arms than the super troops and super tanks on the other side.

Why shouldn't the US get a repair facility/truck instead? The balance aspect is the same (repairThat is much closer to the actual US armor strength in WWII. The US excelled at damaged vehicle recovery and repair. Something that actually wasn't the case for the Axis.

I know this is a fantasy. Relic has a fetish for things as they are. But the stats and player choices says something different.

Well thought out and well written observation, I applaud you and fully agree with you sir.

To better illustrate what I mean I am copying here something I wrote up in another thread:

If an OKW super tank needs to be repaired it retreats and you click a unit to repair it. You can shift click the repairing unit to repair something else, to do something else, to move somewhere else. A few clicks and you can move to some other part of the screen. When you come back your vehicle is repaired and waiting for order and in the meantime can defend itself with its super armor and the repairers are off on their next tasks. If you see the repairing unit is being attacked you click it somewhere else and it goes with the repairers following.

Now compare that to the USF vehicles. You need more of them to attack, which means each vehicle has to be pathed by you taking into account dangers for each. Then you retreat them (hopefully all survive). You can't de-crew until they get to the destination and can't repair until the de-crew is complete. You have two extra commands that each have a minimum of time (de-crew and crew) that have to wait for the vehicle to be in position and can't be stacked in addition to the orders to retreat and repair. (What!? I just lost another squad while trying to repair these three glass cannons?! F-ing "different" faction design!)

During this time, the crew and its veterancy is now exposed to fire and to GTFO they have to jump back in and only then can you retreat them.

And you have to do all of this extra micro to more units than the axis does. That is as bad in 1v1 for a player as it is in 4v4 where it just gets compounded over 4 probably more casual players.

And remember, additional micro is not a matter of arithmetic or geometric increases in difficulty but an exponential progression. Every person can handle only so many APMs (actions per minute). Every action you add to a task reduces their apms available for something else. If US vehicles already have more micro requirements than axis (and they do since they are both more fragile and you have to use more of them) then adding a "balancing" mechanic with EVEN MORE actions gives the veneer of balance, but in the hands of the average player they are just plain harder to use, easier to lose, and require more work.

I came in here kinda not agreeing, but now I'm starting to agree. Axis are less micro intensive by default due to having long range infantry and heavier tanks, but the points raised above mean that USF not only has to micro soldiers every fight with every squad and every tank, but also their repairs. I suppose you could just not use the crews and have RE's or AE's do the repairing, but it's still something to think about.

Maybe you guys have realized this already, but a good tip for microing your crew repairs is to hit shift and right click after they decrew so that they will get back in as soon as repairs are done. That way you won't forget about them and you know when repairs are done since the unit icon reappears in the top right.

I actually prefer not to disembark and risk losing my crew just to repair, not when I have a place to retreat and have RETs for that job.

But perhaps future USF commanders could have an ability to build repair depots like the Soviet Industry commander, or an ability to upgrade the fighting position to spawn mechanics ala CoH1's Wehrmacht bunker upgrade? Could be support commander that has abilities that benefit vanilla units rather than rely on exclusive abilities and unit call-ins.

I actually prefer not to disembark and risk losing my crew just to repair, not when I have a place to retreat and have RETs for that job.

Unless you're trying to repair on the front lines, this shouldn't be a problem. Relying on RE to repair is eliminating one of the strengths of USF, higher vehicle up time (and not having to waste pop cap on relatively combat ineffective builder units)

I actually prefer not to disembark and risk losing my crew just to repair, not when I have a place to retreat and have RETs for that job.

But perhaps future USF commanders could have an ability ... to upgrade the fighting position to spawn mechanics ala CoH1's Wehrmacht bunker upgrade?

I do the same thing with RETs. It's safer, a lot of the time. Especially in larger match sizes (3v3 etch)

I really like that idea. I'd love to see Fighting Positions become more versatile.