So... maxims...

Just got out of a 1v1, faced a player who built a total of 20 MAXIMS, that's right a grand total of TWENTY DAMN MAXIMS!

It didn't relieve him of capping power, didn't even really stop him from being overall committed to and nearly winning the fight.

Nearly...

I still overcame him with the aid of a stuka, several brave Pumas, and a FlaK-Track. Some handy Sturmpioneer flanking micro, and of course the Jaeger Light Infantry and Volksgrenadiers to deal with his vehicles.


I even had to self destruct a medical HQ to so severely damage his SU-85 that I could finally take it out!

Now of course you ask "Why is this in the balance section, why are you telling us your life story?"

I will answer this, because there is clearly something broken in the game, where a Soviet player can mindlessly spam maxims and nearly win the game by a hair, especially if that Soviet player builds TWENTY MAXIMS in a single game.

It was only after I had killed off the last of his maxims on the map in a maxim double-kill that he was finally demoralized enough to quit playing.

But then, and only then, after much frustration and grief, and lack of fun could I finally overcome this tedious bastard.

Just got out of a 1v1, faced a player who built a total of 20 MAXIMS, that's right a grand total of TWENTY DAMN MAXIMS!

It didn't relieve him of capping power, didn't even really stop him from being overall committed to and nearly winning the fight.

Nearly...

I still overcame him with the aid of a stuka, several brave Pumas, and a FlaK-Track. Some handy Sturmpioneer flanking micro, and of course the Jaeger Light Infantry and Volksgrenadiers to deal with his vehicles.


I even had to self destruct a medical HQ to so severely damage his SU-85 that I could finally take it out!

Now of course you ask "Why is this in the balance section, why are you telling us your life story?"

I will answer this, because there is clearly something broken in the game, where a Soviet player can mindlessly spam maxims and nearly win the game by a hair, especially if that Soviet player builds TWENTY MAXIMS in a single game.

It was only after I had killed off the last of his maxims on the map in a maxim double-kill that he was finally demoralized enough to quit playing.

But then, and only then, after much frustration and grief, and lack of fun could I finally overcome these tedious bastard.

This ongoing problem that relic refuse to address. I think suppression and durability need slight nerf.

But if LEIG is also buffed (see my other thread) to actually make it useful and less cost prohibitive i think i will be OK... But definitely need durability decrease and suppression nerf.

You cannot nerf the maxim with the soviet infantry in there current state. It also requires a counter buff to another soviet unit.

You cannot nerf the maxim with the soviet infantry in there current state. It also requires a counter buff to another soviet unit.

That's the troll bait though, they really don't have to buff anything just to nerf something. It's courteous to do so, but they really don't. That's the trap they keep setting for themselves.

Relic's logic is like A = B, C+ is overpowered, so we should just make it C or C-, but let's also make B into B+, ruining the skill based A = B dynamic and turning it into A ≠ B+

That's the troll bait though, they really don't have to buff anything just to nerf something. It's courteous to do so, but they really don't. That's the trap they keep setting for themselves.

Relic's logic is like A = B, C+ is overpowered, so we should just make it C or C-, but let's also make B into B+, ruining the skill based A = B dynamic and turning it into A ≠ B+

Eh, sometimes you do have to mix nerfs with buffs. Remember those months when Ostruppen were useless because their cost had risen from 120 MP to 200 MP and their performance hadn't risen to match?

So yeah, it may very well be the case that cons and penals need a buff.

Eh, sometimes you do have to mix nerfs with buffs. Remember those months when Ostruppen were useless because their cost had risen from 120 MP to 200 MP and their performance hadn't risen to match?

So yeah, it may very well be the case that cons and penals need a buff.

I'm just saying it's a clear cut issue when a maxim can be spammed to hell because it has virtually no down sides in comparison to its German counterparts. I realize the point of the German MG is to be used defensively but it can't even do that job well.

Maxims lock down and shut down entire sectors, even more efficiently when they are spammed. German MG's.. eh they are just disappointing. Especially against blobs of infantry.

Often I hear the excuse "You can't expect 240mp MG's to stop 1000mp worth of infantry." Which I feel I rightfully can disagree. That's the entire point of a machine gun, to shut down a sector until it is properly flanked or sniped or destroyed with vehicles or indirect fire. Unfortunately the Maxim has proven extremely efficient in these areas while the German MG's have proven to be woefully outmatched.


Let's compare them shall we?

MAXIM

• Pros
  -Frighteningly high suppression and pin rate.
  -6 man squad.
  -Very fast deploy and redeploy time.
  -More damage at range compared to German MGs.
  -Firing arc increases inside buildings.
  -Can continue firing while suppressed and pinned.
  
  
• Cons
  -Can get trapped in a fatal loop where the carriage runner is killed while on retreat.
  -Smaller arc of fire. (Can be mitigated by using maximum range or garrisoning in buildings.
  -Vulnerable to artillery strikes
  
  GERMAN MG34/MG42
  
  
  • Pros
    -Wide firing arc.
    -Incendiary rounds upon veterancy.
    -Amusing dialogue.
    
    
  • Cons
    -4 man squad. (Easier to wipe)
    -Long deployment and redeployment times.
    -Unable to suppress quickly, especially through "oorah" (Often ends up molotoved or grenaded)
    -Especially vulnerable to artillery strikes due to long redeployment time.
    -Less damage at range compared to maxim.
    -Cannot fire while suppressed and pinned (To my knowledge.)
    
    
  
  
  

I'm just saying it's a clear cut issue when a maxim can be spammed to hell because it has virtually no down sides in comparison to its German counterparts. I realize the point of the German MG is to be used defensively but it can't even do that job well.

Maxims lock down and shut down entire sectors, even more efficiently when they are spammed. German MG's.. eh they are just disappointing. Especially against blobs of infantry.

Often I hear the excuse "You can't expect 240mp MG's to stop 1000mp worth of infantry." Which I feel I rightfully can disagree. That's the entire point of a machine gun, to shut down a sector until it is properly flanked or sniped or destroyed with vehicles or indirect fire. Unfortunately the Maxim has proven extremely efficient in these areas while the German MG's have proven to be woefully outmatched.


Let's compare them shall we?

MAXIM

• Pros
  -Frighteningly high suppression and pin rate.
  -6 man squad.
  -Very fast deploy and redeploy time.
  -More damage at range compared to German MGs.
  -Firing arc increases inside buildings.
  -Can continue firing while suppressed and pinned.
  
  
• Cons
  -Can get trapped in a fatal loop where the carriage runner is killed while on retreat.
  -Smaller arc of fire. (Can be mitigated by using maximum range or garrisoning in buildings.
  -Vulnerable to artillery strikes
  
  GERMAN MG34/MG42
  
  
  • Pros
    -Wide firing arc.
    -Incendiary rounds upon veterancy.
    -Amusing dialogue.
    
    
  • Cons
    -4 man squad. (Easier to wipe)
    -Long deployment and redeployment times.
    -Unable to suppress quickly, especially through "oorah" (Often ends up molotoved or grenaded)
    -Especially vulnerable to artillery strikes due to long redeployment time.
    -Less damage at range compared to maxim.
    -Cannot fire while suppressed and pinned (To my knowledge.)
    
    
  
  
  

I agree with these points. Not sure why MG42/34 very powerful in WWII is much weaker than maxim and easy to overwhelm and kill.

I agree with these points. Not sure why MG42/34 very powerful in WWII is much weaker than maxim and easy to overwhelm and kill.

The set up times I get as a "balance" thing, arcs of fire too.. but like.. the MG-42 and MG-34 were the first general purpose machine guns, they were light, easy to handle and maintain (The MG-34 less so since it had tooled parts vs the MG-42's all stamped steel parts.) It was so light a man with a sling or a tripod could carry it and set it up.

The Maxim on the other hand was one of the very first machine guns and it also required being in that carriage because it was so damn heavy. The bulkiness of that carriage made it difficult to handle and it had many tooled parts that quickly made it obsolete and not have any staying power in the war, which is why the DShK replaced it. Maintenance on a Maxim was a bitch.

The upside being that it was rugged and wouldn't break or malfunction easily... though if I recall it was often prone to jamming.

I'm just saying it's a clear cut issue when a maxim can be spammed to hell because it has virtually no down sides in comparison to its German counterparts. I realize the point of the German MG is to be used defensively but it can't even do that job well.

Maxims lock down and shut down entire sectors, even more efficiently when they are spammed. German MG's.. eh they are just disappointing. Especially against blobs of infantry.

Often I hear the excuse "You can't expect 240mp MG's to stop 1000mp worth of infantry." Which I feel I rightfully can disagree. That's the entire point of a machine gun, to shut down a sector until it is properly flanked or sniped or destroyed with vehicles or indirect fire. Unfortunately the Maxim has proven extremely efficient in these areas while the German MG's have proven to be woefully outmatched.


Let's compare them shall we?

MAXIM

• Pros
  -Frighteningly high suppression and pin rate.
  -6 man squad.
  -Very fast deploy and redeploy time.
  -More damage at range compared to German MGs.
  -Firing arc increases inside buildings.
  -Can continue firing while suppressed and pinned.
  
  
• Cons
  -Can get trapped in a fatal loop where the carriage runner is killed while on retreat.
  -Smaller arc of fire. (Can be mitigated by using maximum range or garrisoning in buildings.
  -Vulnerable to artillery strikes
  
  GERMAN MG34/MG42
  
  
  • Pros
    -Wide firing arc.
    -Incendiary rounds upon veterancy.
    -Amusing dialogue.
    
    
  • Cons
    -4 man squad. (Easier to wipe)
    -Long deployment and redeployment times.
    -Unable to suppress quickly, especially through "oorah" (Often ends up molotoved or grenaded)
    -Especially vulnerable to artillery strikes due to long redeployment time.
    -Less damage at range compared to maxim.
    -Cannot fire while suppressed and pinned (To my knowledge.)
    
    
  
  
  

One very important factor you forgot to look into is the maxims ability to AOE suppress, or rather, its inability to do so. Charging a single maxim with 2 infantry squads is enough to overwhelm it if they are even slightly far apart. The strength of the maxim is that it is spammable. I will not deny this, but this strength is also an inherent weakness. For example, 2 MG42s supported by a gren squad will always be able to lock down a larger slice of the map in a more efficient manner than 3 maxims. Maxims are currently spammed because they are effective, and that the infantry that are meant to support it aren't good enough to prevent flanks and whatnot, leading to a maxim spam.

The best counter to a maxim spam on narrow maps I have found as OKW is to use your sturmpio in ambush positions to punish aggressive use of maxims. As OKW, stealing even one Maxim will severely punish a soviet player, because by spamming maxims he has for the most part negated his own counters to specific units. If maxims are spammed, remember that the walking stuka (which is easily rushed out) and the sturmpio are great counters, you just have to play more defensively than you may be used to as the OKW.

Obviously this is harder to pull off on larger maps, but these large maps are where maxims have the most trouble. Use the mobility advantage of your forces (and your ability to spawn in ambient buildings) to negate the territorial lockdown of maxims. Remember that maxims don't scale very well at all, and that by denying him a large early game advantage, you have already planted the seeds of his failure. I would very much like to see the game where your opponent spammed 20 maxims, so that I may see where exactly where you went wrong in terms of your army composition.


Edit: Also, i'm pretty sure the MG42 can fire while suppressed, just at a slower rate of burst fire and suppression.

I agree with these points. Not sure why MG42/34 very powerful in WWII is much weaker than maxim and easy to overwhelm and kill.

Because MG42/34 can suppress blobs, meanwhile maxims can only suppress 1/2 squads before being overrun.
Maxims and axis HMG aren't meant to be played identical. A lone MG42 can defend a point against an enemy push, a lone maxim can only scare lone squads.

And as Katiof said, soviets doesn't have non-doctrinal units anymore. Not conscripts, penals, medium or heavy tanks. Just maxims & snipers until you can call-in doctrinal units.
Enjoy.

I agree with sierra, at least a little bit. Relic has to do something about the maxims, they are very strong have a high durability and a very good surpression. The main problem is that you can spam this unit and you are still able to win a game with it. Even against a player with better micro and better understanding of the game. And the worst thing which comes with this tactic is that it is a total fun killer.

Because MG42/34 can suppress blobs, meanwhile maxims can only suppress 1/2 squads before being overrun.
Maxims and axis HMG aren't meant to be played identical. A lone MG42 can defend a point against an enemy push, a lone maxim can only scare lone squads.

And as Katiof said, soviets doesn't have non-doctrinal units anymore. Not conscripts, penals, medium or heavy tanks. Just maxims & snipers until you can call-in doctrinal units.
Enjoy.

No it cannot supress blobs. Very very easy die to US blob......almost instantly

-snip

I can promise you a replay wont be necessary, I beat the player and he rarely had more than 5-6 maxims on the field.. I'm just dumbfounded that he built over 20 maxims in a single game.

Thankfully he was also dumb enough to keep putting them in buildings to be stuka'd to death.

Had to fight tooth and nail for every inch of ground and every kill or vehicle kill. But the person built a grand total of one engineer squad and one conscript squad throughout the entire games build order screen.



It was dumbfounding really, and may have aided in his overall defeat, but the point is that it was so stupidly difficult to defeat simple MG teams... and it wouldn't even be that big a deal if German MG's performed on a similar level but they just don't not even close.


The overall point of this post though is to show my disbelief that such a brainless tactic or strategy can be applied with almost zero thought and be so stupidly effective in this game. That's my issue with it.

Like I said, German MGs sacrifice a bit of early game potential in order to become efficient suppression platforms in the late game. You will many times see an MG42 built specifically in the late game to hold a victory point in 2v2s and 1v1s. Maxims, not so much, as they are more micro intensive, weak by themselves, and generally useless in the late game due to the abundance of yellow cover. The maxim is almost like a conscript in terms of its scalability, extremely powerful early game in numbers, not so much in late game.

No it cannot supress blobs. Very very easy die to US blob......almost instantly

Well, if the blob is so big that it can kill the mg42 even suppressed then I don't see any problem.
Put some suppor, you cannot expect to win the war with a lone MG42.

Maxim is fucking easy to flank, as Ost you shouldn't have any problem with maxims, and as OKW use long range infantry or Falls/JLI spawning behind them.
Maxim spam gives soviets a BIG advantage early game, but it vanishes very soon, unless you're a noob spammer.

A lone MG42 can defend a point against an enemy push, a lone maxim can only scare lone squads.

This is just completely false.

This is just completely false.

Indeed, not even the prenerfed MG34 can do it, the suppression AOE is not that really high.
Allies just need to use one squad baiting the volley, the other one freely walk into the MG crew face.